DM Running Meeting: 20241009 - Notes
CresitelloDittmar, Mark
mdittmar at cfa.harvard.edu
Thu Oct 17 17:46:06 CEST 2024
All,
Thanks to all who participated in the running meeting last week! There was
good coverage and conversation over the agenda items. We have a few
actions coming from that.. so please follow-up there and keep the momentum
building.
Below are some notes from the meeting.. I'll put them in-line with the
agenda *(in bold)*, and a summary of actions. My apologies for any errors
in interpretation.. feel free to make corrections.
I've also created a Twiki Page
<https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/IvoaDMRunningMeetings>(following
the DAL example), to coordinate the Running Meeting information, agenda,
and notes.
(I'll add a link to these notes on that table when they appear in the email
archive.)
*Action Summary:*
- MS: schedule and setup regular DM Running Meetings going forward
- MCD: follow-up on DM session contribution request by YX
- DONE - this contribution will be in the Plenary panel session.
- PH: pull some/all, hopefully non-controversial, items from the VO-DML
1.1 milestone as candidates to move forward.. announce these to the DM
mailing list for consideration/discussion. Goal to have Working group
consensus items identified, defining the scope of 1.1 update for Malta.
- MCD: bring the 'Shape' discussion to the DM mail list, with goal to
gain consensus on where this model element should live in the DM ecosystem
- ??: bring vo-dml 'version' attribute to DM mail list for discussion..
at least to form a plan IF the attribute is, in fact, needed for upcoming
vo-dml standard updates.
- LM: Announce to the DM mail list when the MANGO model document is
ready for general review.
-
*Attendees:*
Mark CD, Mathieu Servillat, Pat Dowler, Marco Molinaro, Gerard Lemson,
Mireille Louys, Laurent Michel, Paul Harrison, Grégory Mantelet, Janet
Evans, Erin Brassfield Bourke
*Agenda:*
- Running meetings going forward:
- I’d like to set a fixed day/time each month to pre-schedule the
running meetings going forward. *[ACTION: MS to setup/schedule]*
- Interop Prep:
- Programme page:
https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/InterOpNov2024
- DM session scheduled for Saturday Nov 16; 11:00 local time.
- DM Session Page:
- Responses to “Call for presentations” so far
- Paul H: VO-DML tools/Std update
- Laurent M: MANGO updates/status
- Mark C-D: Follow-up on Joint session topic
- HEIG
- Ian Evans: possible contribution coming
- ??
- Yunfei Xu: a talk on Einstein Probe (EP) scientific data
management
- ?? DM the right place for this?
* NOTES:*
* o ACTION: MCD to follow-up with Yunfei on where to
best fit his contribution.*
- CAOM Integration
- Document uploaded to IVOA D&S page
- quick summary of what that contains (any changes made toward
integration goal)
- what is needed from DM group now?
- where do we go from here?
* NOTES:*
* o PD gave a good overview of the current document
status*
* o Moving toward an IVOA model for CAOM.. has
community buy-in*
* o Changes to CAOM-2.4 are posted on D&S page,
includes*
* o support for radio*
* o reconciles some items with IVOA
practices*
* o includes use cases from MAST, IRSA,
IPAC*
* o The document is rough; *
* o **has a lot of editorial (LaTex)
updates to make (current doc. target format is HTML)*
* o needs introduction and abstract...*
* o work to do on vocabularies modeling and
how to handle new vocabularies*
* o Going Forward:*
* o doing the cleanup (PD); and
broadcasting to the community for comment*
* o At Malta: Looking to have a brutal
discussion on the details.*
* o It is intended that the CAOM model (DM) and
associated TAP interface (DAL) are kept separate*
* o CAOM - ties into the 'Shape as DataType'
discussion (see VO-DML)*
- VO-DML: https://github.com/ivoa/vo-dml
- Schema change:
http://mail.ivoa.net/pipermail/dm/2024-August/006502.html
- History review:
- 2018: email discussion about having a ‘version’ attribute;
the attribute appears to have been added to volute
document at that time
- 4/23/2018: attribute added to Git schema (commit 4933)
- Unfortunately, the version that went to REC did not
include the document snippet or the schema version
which included it.
- The attribute was removed from the Git schema in 2021
during a sweep by Paul H. to match the published schema.
- Do we add this to the 1.1 list?
- 1.1 candidates:
- ROADMAP item: Reconcile STC
<https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/STC> (Region), FoV
<https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/edit/IVOA/FoV?topicparent=IVOA.2024ARoadmap;nowysiwyg=0>
(Shape), DALI <https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/DALI>
(dtypes), CAOM (dtypes)
- this came up multiple times during the interop and shouldn't
be too difficult to make a plan
- STC <https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/STC> (Region)
-- separate shape from Frame => STC
<https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/STC>-S serialization
- Note: we don't necessarily have to update STC
<https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/STC>, just recast
STC <https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/STC>-S to
refer to the replacement models.
- Git Issues: (Tagged with V1.1 Milestone)
- These have been on the table for some time, and reported by
PH at various interops. They have not gotten any attention
within the working group beyond that. I think we should get
the short-list to the working group for review/comment
with dates/goals to
push a V1.1 update through.
- #44: Grouping of attribute composition and reference in
ObjectType and DataType
- #43: Update Appendix B Mapping to serialization meta-models
- #41: Document rules for ‘contained’ references
- #37: specify that datetime string serialization to conform
to ISO8601
- #20: update VO-DML Standard document to 1.1
- #18: make the form of vodml-ids mandatory
- #14: Schema Generation (XML and JSON)
- #5: primitive type for ivorn
- #4: way to indicate ‘natural’ primary key
* NOTES:*
* o MCD: suggested the VO-DML presentation at Malta be
more directed as a plan for moving V1.1 forward with change-list, status
and roadmap.*
* o ACTION: PH - pull some/all, hopefully
non-controversial, items from the VO-DML 1.1 milestone as candidates to
move forward.. announce these to the DM mailing list for
consideration/discussion. Goal to have Working group consensus items
identified, defining the scope of 1.1 update for Malta.*
* o MCD: opened discussion on adding the 'shape'
datatypes in the "ivoa" model.*
* o PD: in DALI/CAOM these are expressed as
xtypes.. and items that can be expressed that way are good candidates as
base types.*
* o PH: adding this for 1.1 seems rather
rushed.. the other items on the milestone have been implemented for some
time.*
* - reminder that there is a
'playground' in the vo-dml toolkit where things like this could be tried
out.*
* o GL: suggested this is really more of a
serialization issue. Not sure VO-DML needs to care about that.*
* - serialization (as xtypes) should
be outside of the ivoa model.*
* o PD: pointed out that the Shape datatype is
already defined and implemented in the DALI standard, *
* so this is a relocation of
implemented content and not starting from scratch.*
* o **General discussion that this concept is
one that is currently appearing in multiple models and models in progress.*
* If it is not added to the ivoa model base
types, we should consider separating it as a core model just above the base
types level which *
* can be reused in various contexts.*
* - eg: this model would describe the
shape datatype, the various models (FOV, DALI, ...) would use that type and
add context such as *
* an associated coordinate
system, creating a spatial Region of a particular Shape.*
* ACTION: MCD - bring the discussion to the DM
mail list, with goal to gain consensus on where this model element should
be *
* o MCD: opened discussion on the 'version' attribute
topic*
* o version attribute is the 'version of vo-dml'
which is different from the version element in vo-dml which is the 'version
of the model being described'.*
* o PH: initial impression is that this isn't a
necessary addition*
* o PD: is not sure this is needed, it depends
on when model changes produce a change in namespace.*
* o GL: what if the schema doesn't change, but
the document does? Would we want a new namespace for the new content?*
* I feel like there was an action here, for this
to be discussed on the DM mail list, but I don't have any written down.*
* - I recall expressing concern that we get
well into the V1.1 process and discover that the attribute is needed..
causing a delay.*
- Mango: Status update by Laurent
* NOTES:*
* o LM: Working draft is published, refinements are
on-going.*
* o ACTION - LM: Announce to the DM mail list when
the document is ready for general review.*
- Formally Expressing Model B as a “view” of Model A
- MCD - summarize where we are and what the plan is going toward
Malta and beyond
- This would probably benefit from a separate/dedicated meeting
prior to the interop.
- We had discussed a meeting of some sort in Sydney which I did
not follow-up on to make happen.. but a short working “jam
session” would
be helpful here.
* NOTES:*
* o MCD: gave a brief overview of current work..
mostly around mapping the MANGO:EpochPosition element to the 'parent'
Coordinates model*
* o GL: this is a very hard problem to solve, asks
what is the goal of this mapping? What are we going to do with it?*
* MCD response: My concern is that IF we allow
models to define objects which overlap in concepts with other models, *
* but catered to particular clients/cases,
we want to ensure that the content is consistent. Not doing so will put us
in the same position we *
* have had with ObsCore, STC and
Spectrum.. all with inconsistent/overlapping content.*
* For example: I'd like to be able to
automatically **verify that *
* o mango:EpochPosition is, in fact,
a valid consolidation of Coordinates model elements.*
* o obscore is a consistent 'view'
of CAOM and/or DataSet*
* o caom content which overlaps
DataSet, Cube etc concepts is consistent.*
* o MM: reminder that Baptiste is a good resource for
plugging into the Ontology community*
- AOB
- IVOA Note for FITS serializations:
http://mail.ivoa.net/pipermail/dm/2024-June/006476.html
- discussion started as question about lightcurve data model, but
was concluding with a proposal to develop an IVOA Note with
‘preferred’
serializations for various products in FITS format.
- This project would require review/assessment of the ‘big
players’ currently in practice and define a recommended
serialization.
This would probably include a dictionary for FITS keywords for
metadata at the Dataset/ObsCore level.
- Kelle Cruz was very keen on this project and, I think, would be
willing (eager to contribute)
* NOTES:*
* o This topic was not covered in this meeting.. ran
out of time.*
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