Radio IG / DM WG running meeting : ObsCore extension

Fri Sep 29 18:07:18 CEST 2023

Hi all,

      I am confident that use cases have been discussed since the time 
the CSP focused on discovery and accees of radio data with VO satndards 
and proposed to create this group.
      I think what is missing is the appendix with these use cases 
expressed as ADQL queries
      We started to write that and hope to propose something before interop.
      In the mean time you may have a look to a new version of the draft 
which integrated a lot of improvments for single dish data.
https://github.com/ivoa-std/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData/releases/download/auto-pdf-preview/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData-draft.pdf
      You can also find it here : 
https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData-draft_1.pdf
      Apart from the use case appendix Points discussed in the last 
running meeting encompass :
          fmin/fmax addition
          dataproduct_types/instrument types / scan modes
          uv plane description
          registration
          extension and main table relationship
          links to auxiliary data visualisation
          ....
Cheers
François

Le 31/08/2023 à 12:23, Ada Nebot a écrit :
> Hi Alberto,
>
> Your points are fair enough, and use cases should be the starting 
> point. I think that the document should state clearly the use cases 
> this extension tries to solve and how. At the moment it refers to 
> another VO document ("Radio interferometry data in the VO”), which 
> makes the reading a bit more tedious.
>
> I suggest the authors of the document summarise those use cases 
> upfront and add a section on how those uses cases get answered by the 
> proposed parameters of such a secondary table that would accompany 
> Obscore.
>
> Cheers,
> Ada
>
> Ada Nebot
> -- 
> Astronome Adjointe
> CDS, Observatoire Astronomique de Strasbourg (ObAS)
> UMR 7550 Université de Strasbourg
> 11 Rue de l’Université, F-67000 Strasbourg
> +33 (0) 3 68 85 24 40
>
>> On 29 Aug 2023, at 15:46, alberto micol <amicol.ivoa at googlemail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> Sorry, I hope I sound more propositive than patronising… I really 
>> believe in what I’m going to say...
>>
>> When we prepared ObsCore 1.0, we were driven by a consolidated and 
>> approved list of scientific use cases (*). Those use cases were 
>> provided in form of ADQL-like queries that astronomers wanted to 
>> perform to find data useful to their scientific projects. Those 
>> queries are reported in the ObsCore standard (Appendix A: Use Cases 
>> in detail).
>>
>> Such list of use cases helped us a lot in cutting short discussions 
>> that otherwise would have been much longer and tiring, and likely 
>> ineffective.
>> Of the many parameters useful to describe any given dataset, we were 
>> forced by the collected list of use cases/database queries, to 
>> restrict ourselves to the juice of things. So to say, ObsCore is only 
>> the orange juice, it is not the orange, nor the oranges.
>> The list of queries not only provided the list of most important 
>> parameters needed, but also made clear how those parameters were 
>> going to be used, hence implicitly providing their definition.
>>
>> I cannot express strong enough how fundamental it was to have those 
>> use cases at hand.
>> In my opinion, to be faithful to the original and commended ObsCore’s 
>> approach, I think that any extension to ObsCore
>> shall provide, first of all, a list of use cases, expressed as 
>> ADQL-like queries, for the specific type of data at hand, and not yet 
>> supported by ObsCore.
>> (Some such use cases could even be found within the mentioned 
>> Appendix, as we could not accomodate in v1.0 all received use cases).
>>
>> While reading the twiki discussion page and after having had a look 
>> at the current WD for the extension to radio data, I failed to find 
>> any reference to the queries such ObsCore extension should permit.
>>
>> Is it too late to ask, probably the Standing Committee for Science 
>> Priorities, such list of queries?
>> (Of course, unless such list already exists, and I have miserably 
>> failed to find it, in which case please accept my apologies)
>>
>> I believe that by looking at the new use cases, and comparing them 
>> with the existing ones, we can come up with a powerful and versatile 
>> standard.
>>
>> Without new use cases, I really do not know how the questions posed 
>> in the discussion page could effectively be answered, as I do not 
>> understand what is really important, which parameters are going to be 
>> used the most by the community, which ones instead are only covering 
>> niche cases, etc.
>>
>> The ObsCore motto was: “good enough”, as opposed to “describing all 
>> possible scenarios”, I will not forget that lesson, which I hope is 
>> also passed along to the new generation of VO developers.
>>
>> My two cents,
>> Alberto
>> (*) The use cases were collected by the Use Case Group of 
>> astronomers, appointed by the IVOA Take-Up Committee (predecessor of 
>> the current Standing Committee on Science Priorities), and led by 
>> David Schade, whose role did not stop there as he then organised and 
>> attended all the following ObsCore Tiger Team meetings, motivating us 
>> all, until publication of ObsCore v1.0, back in 2011. [Reference: 
>> Report of IVOA Take-Up Committee 
>> <https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/IvoaExecMeetingFM34/IVOATake-UpRept0909.doc>, 
>> IVOA Interop, Strasbourg May 2009]
>>
>>
>>> On 26 Jul 2023, at 15:39, BONNAREL FRANCOIS 
>>> <francois.bonnarel at astro.unistra.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>>   We plan to have a joint on line meeting in one month in order to 
>>> solve most of the remaining issues for the ObsCore extension for 
>>> radio data specification
>>>
>>>   A poll to choose date and time below. Everybody in these lists is 
>>> welcomed but must of all the specification authors.
>>>
>>> https://evento.renater.fr/survey/radio-ig-dm-wg-running-meeting-l6i1fdo0
>>>
>>>    I remind you the links for the specification WD : 
>>> https://ivoa.net/documents/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData/20230512/index.html
>>>
>>> the discussion page on the ivoa twiki : 
>>> https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData
>>>
>>> or the github project : 
>>> https://github.com/ivoa-std/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> François Bonnarel (RIG Chair) with
>>>
>>> Mark Cresitello Dittmar (DMWG Chair)
>>>
>>> Mark Kettenis (RIG vice-chair)
>>>
>>> Mathieu Servillat (DMWG vice-chair)
>>>
>>
>
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