VOTable 1.5 Working Draft

Thu Oct 12 19:11:15 CEST 2023

Hi again,

The votes are in and through a stroke of luck we have a time slot when
everybody seems to be available so I'm rushing in to secure it. Please mark:

Monday Oct 16
13:30 UTC

Adrian Damian is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

Topic: VOTable1.5
Time: Oct 16, 2023 06:30 AM Vancouver

Join Zoom Meeting
https://us06web.zoom.us/j/83233212169?pwd=86aqvoK0MA87XlDaxVkb4RGBx5LbMW.1

Meeting ID: 832 3321 2169
Passcode: 7rHhc1

I hope that Francois Ochsenbein can also join.

Have a great weekend and see you all on Monday.

Adrian

On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 11:39 AM Adrian Damian <andamian at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Please indicate your availability at
> https://www.when2meet.com/?21818986-s6VUc to find a suitable day and time
> next week to discuss the COOSYS issue. People on the cc list should be
> primarily interested in this. Markus, I've added your availability already,
>
> We aim at making a decision (about the meeting and not the issue :-)) in a
> couple of days.
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 11:56 AM Tom Donaldson <tdonaldson at stsci.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> I would also participate in such a meeting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *apps <apps-bounces at ivoa.net> on behalf of Laurent Michel <
>> laurent.michel at astro.unistra.fr>
>> *Date: *Friday, October 6, 2023 at 2:36 PM
>> *To: *Adrian Damian <andamian at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *Applications WG <apps at ivoa.net>
>> *Subject: *Re: VOTable 1.5 Working Draft
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I agree, we can discuss the issue before Interop
>>
>> Chuss/Salut/Bye from my  IThing
>>
>> Laurent
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 6 oct. 2023 à 18:39, Adrian Damian <andamian at gmail.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you, Laurent and others for offering different perspectives on the
>> COOSYS issue. It is an important issue and it's great to see all the
>> discussions that it generates. It will most certainly be discussed at the
>> Interop but Pierre and I were wondering if people prefer an earlier
>> opportunity to meet and discuss it. Please let us know and we can organize
>> a Zoom meeting next week or the week after depending on everyone's
>> availability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Adrian & Pierre
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 7:58 AM Laurent Michel <
>> laurent.michel at astro.unistra.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Apps,
>>
>> Having just subscribed back to the channel, I've no other choice than
>> opening a new thread,
>> sorry for that. I keep the same title anyway.
>>
>> I understand the objections expressed by Pierre & Co about modifying the
>> VOTable schema
>> to support both direction references.
>> I totally agree with the need of defining a standard way to implement the
>> Epoch propagation
>> but I do not get the advantage of modifying the schema for this.
>> I'm suspicious that having both directions references may introduce
>> ambiguities in the reference
>> processing in comparison with using GROUPs that simply connect both
>> FIELDS and WHATEVERSYS.
>> It seems to me that this latest approach won't make any damage in the
>> existing workflow
>> (Provider/VOTable/client) or bother client developers either.
>> There are perhaps some major twiks hidden somewhere, but I do not see any
>> yet.
>>
>>  From another hand If someone had asked me what was the best way for the
>> VOTable to support
>> EPOCH propagation, I wouldn't have suggested  using COOSSYS->FELD ref or
>> FIELD<-GROUP->COOSYS.
>>
>> I'm not trying to negotiate a working  VOTable pattern against DM
>> promises but
>> However I think it is important for the community to get the status of
>> the ongoing work to assess
>> the opportunity of mentioning this approach in the document and may be to
>> reconsider the scope
>> of the new COOSYS pattern, whatever it is.
>>
>> The DM approach would provide a total flexibility for connecting columns
>> with any sort of classes.
>> For this, we need MIVOT (we got it), code and models (we have them except
>> one -MANGO-)
>> Below is a glimpse of the Today's DM landscape:
>>
>> - MIVOT: VO REC
>> - Models:
>>    - Meas/Coords/PhotDM/... VO Rec now
>>    - MANGO: We need a better coverage of the usual physical quantities
>> present in query responses.
>>     This is the purpose of MANGO. Basically it is a aggregator of
>> Meas/Coords objects + instances
>>     of specific classes that are not easily covered by recommended models:
>>       - Status and flags
>>       - Photometric data
>>       - 6 Params position (Pos/pm/parallax/Rv == Epoch propagation).
>>         We will propose here a flat class with those 6 parameters such as
>> requested
>>         by Markus and Gilles. This topic is less advanced because errors
>> with
>>         multiple covariances are not a cakewalk.
>> - Astropy/PyVO
>>    - We have a PR (https://github.com/astropy/astropy/pull/15390
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/astropy/astropy/pull/15390__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!zxjgBoAkYcR-Sd4qFx2S5dv9FODr4XGEOrEemS4AhhvhCPX8UHuVa7OjeQtO4NB0a3p-0Xbp58rgDOUGLE1Nm9e5G04PcoG4Rg$>
>> )
>>     for enabling Astropy to operate the basic IO operations with  MIVOT
>> annotations.
>>    - We are going to open PRs on PyVO to provide a science API similar to
>> this proposed
>>      by Markus (https://github.com/msdemlei/astropy
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/msdemlei/astropy__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!zxjgBoAkYcR-Sd4qFx2S5dv9FODr4XGEOrEemS4AhhvhCPX8UHuVa7OjeQtO4NB0a3p-0Xbp58rgDOUGLE1Nm9e5G078_MkyIg$>
>> )
>>
>> I won't be promoting this any further, but I think that the MIVOT
>> workflow should
>> be taken into consideration at some point in VOTable 1.5.
>>
>> Best
>> Laurent
>>
>> --
>> English version: https: //www.deepl.com/translator
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.deepl.com/translator__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!zxjgBoAkYcR-Sd4qFx2S5dv9FODr4XGEOrEemS4AhhvhCPX8UHuVa7OjeQtO4NB0a3p-0Xbp58rgDOUGLE1Nm9e5G07be8ubMw$>
>> --
>> jesuischarlie/Tunis/Paris/Bruxelles/Berlin
>>
>> Laurent Michel
>> SSC XMM-Newton
>> Tél : +33 (0)3 68 85 24 37
>> Fax : +33 (0)3 )3 68 85 24 32
>> Université de Strasbourg <http://www.unistra.fr
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.unistra.fr__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!zxjgBoAkYcR-Sd4qFx2S5dv9FODr4XGEOrEemS4AhhvhCPX8UHuVa7OjeQtO4NB0a3p-0Xbp58rgDOUGLE1Nm9e5G051jTZkYA$>
>> >
>> Observatoire Astronomique
>> 11 Rue de l'Université
>> F - 67200 Strasbourg
>>
>>
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