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<p>Hi Rob</p>
<p>Good to "see" you back on IVOA mailing lists <span
class="moz-smiley-s1"><span>:-)</span></span>. Indeed, the IVOA
is building bridges with the Planetary Community and we created
some time ago a dedicated Solar System Interest Group
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/IvoaSS">http://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/IvoaSS</a>), led by Baptiste
Cecconi (from Observatoire de Paris) and Steve Joy (from UCLA, and
PDS/PPI Node Operations Manager) to ensure synergy and closer
collaboration. <br>
</p>
<p>They've been really active in the last Interop meeting and they
have started to address some of your points I believe. I've put
them all in cc, including the dedicated SSIG mailing list so the
discussion can continue there. I'm sure Baptiste and Steve will
address your points better than me...<br>
</p>
<p>I hope this helps and it would be great to have you on-board on
these!<br>
</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>Christophe <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 23/11/2018 15:35, Rob Seaman wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1f6bd38f-a02c-83a3-befa-081b939c07bb@lpl.arizona.edu">
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<p>Hello all,</p>
<p>Not sure which of these lists I'm still subscribed to, but
copying all from the original message. Solar system science
cases are the poster child for the various features of STC
supporting the near-field. Hopefully IVOA is still embracing the
full richness of space-time coordinates?<br>
</p>
<p>One wonders if IVOA has engaged with the planetary science
community (our solar system or others) regarding these use
cases? This applies both to requirements discovery as well as a
concept of operations and ultimate uptake in support of this
community.</p>
<p>Some context and links: A reminder that IVOA is first and
foremost an IAU activity under Commission B2. Solar system
issues fall under several commissions, e.g., ephemerides under
Comm X2. The IAU has a recent standard for small bodies
astrometry / photometry:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://github.com/IAU-ADES/ADES-Master"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/IAU-ADES/ADES-Master</a></li>
</ul>
<p>There are the usual debates about JSON vs XML, etc. The long
time center for such activities, the Minor Planet Center:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.minorplanetcenter.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.minorplanetcenter.net</a><br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>was recently reorganized under the Small Bodies Node of the
Planetary Data System. If the IVOA is not coordinating with the
PDS it should be, both under the SBN and other nodes:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://pds-smallbodies.astro.umd.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://pds-smallbodies.astro.umd.edu</a></li>
</ul>
<p>The Planetary Science community has the advantage of being able
to send spacecraft to visit its objects of study, and these are
supported by diverse activities at NASA centers, in particular
JPL and GSFC, e.g.:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/naif/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/naif/</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov" moz-do-not-send="true">https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov</a><br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>For NEOs this includes:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov" moz-do-not-send="true">https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov</a></li>
</ul>
<p>With other external groups like:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://newton.spacedys.com" moz-do-not-send="true">https://newton.spacedys.com</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://asteroid.lowell.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">http://asteroid.lowell.edu</a></li>
</ul>
<p>The community database of asteroid time series is explicitly
curated at:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.minorplanet.info/lightcurvedatabase.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.minorplanet.info/lightcurvedatabase.html</a></li>
</ul>
<p>This would be a good site to scavenge science requirements.
Various familiar and unfamiliar archive sites support different
solar system data sets that should be of interest to IVOA. Many
sites are in states of active development.<br>
</p>
<p>There are meetings that IVOA should participate in to engage
with the Planetary Science community:<br>
</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://aas.org/meetings/dps50" moz-do-not-send="true">https://aas.org/meetings/dps50</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://astrogeology.usgs.gov/groups/planetary-data-workshop"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://astrogeology.usgs.gov/groups/planetary-data-workshop</a>
(somewhat similar to ADASS)<br>
</li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news/2017/03/21/2018-planetary-science-informatics-and-data-analytics-conference/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news/2017/03/21/2018-planetary-science-informatics-and-data-analytics-conference/</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://hotwireduniverse.org" moz-do-not-send="true">http://hotwireduniverse.org</a><br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>At the recent DPS there were booths for ADS and WWT, but I
didn't notice an IVOA presence. Apologies if this was an
oversight on my part. The Hotwired meetings started as a joint
series between VOEvent and the Heterogeneous Telescope Networks
consortium and continues now under the IAU Time Domain Working
Group (and the AAS WG-TDA, as well). HTN is now spearheaded by
the bricks-and-mortar Las Cumbres Observatory. Several from the
VOEvent WG continue to be involved, but an enhanced IVOA
participation would be welcome in 2019! Moving objects in the
solar system have been a topic since the first meeting, but
especially since Hotwired V.</p>
<p>The main belt asteroids are foreground to celestial transients,
but are background to NEOs. IVOA use cases will always need to
accommodate the multiple spatial regimes, and this will have
implications for time standards, protocols, and infrastructure.
This includes interesting variations like Kuiper Belt Objects
and artificial satellites / orbital debris. <br>
</p>
<p>Rob Seaman, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory</p>
<p>--</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/23/18 2:53 AM, François
Bonnarel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8120b349-a404-1cfd-25d2-25ede163cdde@astro.unistra.fr">
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charset=utf-8">
<p>Hi,</p>
<p>This email sent yesterday to the three lists was apparently
not sent to voevent. (Time domain maling list). I was
apaprently not registered there.</p>
<p>For those on several lists, sorry for the SPAM<br>
</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>François<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
<br>
-------- Message transféré --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing="0"
cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Sujet :
</th>
<td>TimeSeries of position (Asteroid)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date :
</th>
<td>Thu, 22 Nov 2018 21:51:19 +0100</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">De :
</th>
<td>François Bonnarel <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:francois.bonnarel@astro.unistra.fr"
moz-do-not-send="true"><francois.bonnarel@astro.unistra.fr></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Pour :
</th>
<td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:dm@ivoa.net" moz-do-not-send="true">dm@ivoa.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:dm@ivoa.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><dm@ivoa.net></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:dal@ivoa.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><dal@ivoa.net></a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:dal@ivoa.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><dal@ivoa.net></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:voevent@ivoa.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">voevent@ivoa.net</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<pre>Der Dave, all,*
Before interop Dave asked me to provide how a TimeSeries of Asteroid
could look like with the current ts model proposal and Utypes serialisation.
<blockquote type="cite"><pre>Someone recently described to me a use case that I haven't seen in our
discussions.
To help me understand how to use the new model, could you send me a
simple example of how a time series of position over time would look ?
For a single moving object we would get multiple ra/dec or Point
values plotted against time.
For a mode complex example, multiple position and magnitude values
plotted against time.</pre>
</blockquote>
You can find a "dummy example" of this at this URL :
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/time-domain/time-series/note/DATA/Proposed_Serializations/UTYPES/AsteroidSimple.xml" moz-do-not-send="true">http://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/time-domain/time-series/note/DATA/Proposed_Serializations/UTYPES/AsteroidSimple.xml</a>
Could be from gaia for an Asteroid.
Then Dave gave more details for the second more complex example
<blockquote type="cite"><pre>Two use cases from the Gaia meeting.
Exoplanets, the star will change both brightness and position by tiny
amounts linked to the planet's orbit. Very small and slow changes in
both position and brightness, hard to detect above the noise.
Near earth asteroid will be travelling very fast, and change
brightness in response to distance from the sun, position relative to
the sun, and rotation and shape of the asteroid itself. Very large and
rapid changes in both position and brightness.
Both are valid cases for time series of positions and magnitudes. </pre></blockquote>
This is an attempt for a Near Earth Asteroid
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/time-domain/time-series/note/DATA/Proposed_Serializations/UTYPES/AsteroidFull.xml" moz-do-not-send="true">http://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/time-domain/time-series/note/DATA/Proposed_Serializations/UTYPES/AsteroidFull.xml</a>
Data are dummy of course. but with about 1 magnitude amplitude and 1deg position change in 10 days !!!
<i><b>Changes for the Exoplanets use case can be easilly done :</b></i>
There will be no real "look and feel" change for the magnitudes.
For position, the best is probably to set the mid position of the star in the refPOsition of COOSYS (see note below) and to have the lon and lat columns giving the deviation from this
position along the ra and dec axes (and no more ecliptic longitude and latitude). The unit for these two columns will probbaly be "mas" instead of "deg".
Cheers
François
COOSYS note : currently there is no "refPosition" attribute in COOSYS. We propose to add one , taking the opportunity of the change in VOTable schema required to introduce TIMESYS.
this attribute allows accurate distinctions of positions computed from BARYCENTER, TOPOCENTER, GEOCENTER, as well as definitions of standalone "local" spatial frames to code for
very accurate measurements.
</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Thanks in advance
Cheers
Christophe
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