<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear et al., <div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 16 Oct 2017, at 23:17, Robert B. Denny <<a href="mailto:rdenny@dc3.com" class="">rdenny@dc3.com</a>> wrote:</div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>About time! ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Calibri, 'Trebuchet MS', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 238);">As some of you probably recall, I walked away from all of this back at the 2012 LSST All Hands meeting. Meanwhile recently some interest has sprung up wherein some real-time amateur-professional cooperation is happening and we're using the VOEvent network that we've had running for years. In addition we're hoping to get the AAVSO on board. We have met twice with the director and their tech guy regarding using VOEvent to alert for urgent transient events, exoplanet data, and other data collection requests, again from professionals. So, it appears I have a bit of interest in this.</div></div></blockquote></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Calibri, 'Trebuchet MS', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 238);">I read Tim and John's responses and in general I go along with them. My thoughts are:<br class=""><ul class=""><li class="">What's the strong engineering case for changing to or adding JSON (it's coolness is not an engineering reason, and I like it too)? Why are we doing it?<br class=""></li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>"Coolness" is a non-reason. Being much better is a good reason, being somewhat better is a poor reason.</div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Calibri, 'Trebuchet MS', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 238);"><ul class=""><li class="">How will you prevent trash from entering the system? Early in VOEvent, I had to implement a "pre-patcher" to fix errors in VOEvent messages from various sources which were producing the XML by directly writing angle brackets (syntax), including "custom" elements (structure), and using incorrect date/time and/or coordinate forma (semantics). All of this can be avoided (and is avoided) by using schema-driven generation and validation via a higher level API. I know you remember my shrill and annoying speech about this at one of the WG meetings (Santa Cruz?) ha ha. What is the technical maturity of JSON schema and especially the tools for generating and validating JSON. Can we enforce the "rule of law" for JSON and thus successfully require correct data at the entry point of the system?</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Then the problem isn't format (XML vs JSON) but poorly written content. This should be a non-issue to this forum.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Calibri, 'Trebuchet MS', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 238);"><ul class=""><li class="">Converting from the schema-compliant XML to JSON looks technically risky.</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div>Without verification and auto-generation the idea is dead-in-the-water. JSON Schema official status: <a href="http://json-schema.org" class="">http://json-schema.org</a> says</div><div><br class=""></div><h2 id="project-status" style="margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px; font-weight: 400; font-size: 32px; color: rgb(17, 17, 17); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Project Status</h2><p style="margin: 0px 0px 15px; padding: 0px; color: rgb(17, 17, 17); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" class="">The JSON Schema project intends to shepherd the Core, Validation, and Hyper-Schema specifications to RFC status</p><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"Intends" sounds very promising but also not very finished.</div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128); font-family: Calibri, 'Trebuchet MS', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 238);"><ul class=""><li class=""><u class="">I like the data model group idea</u>. I need to digest the implications of that. The above projects that our little group of pro/am people are doing could benefit from it. We are already <u class="">perverting</u> VOEvent via Params, turning it into a request of sorts rather than just an alert. It's all quite ad-hoc, with our approach being to see what's really needed, and which concepts best work in the real world. We're not pouring any concrete. As you folks know I am a bit hostile to "design and decree" anyway ha ha.</li></ul></div></blockquote><div>THIS is the real issue: we trimmed WhoWhatWhenWhereHowWhy to it's necessary minimum but left the rest to random un-constrained PARAM's. We should have been talking about how to publish and constrain further content. The analogy is with content Vocabularies - we don't need one gigantic vocabulary but a well-constrained and hence well-behaved ecosystem of vocabularies.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Bob - let's talk about RTML's new <SimpleObservation> before you start mishandling VOEvent's.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Rick</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:A44BF53AA08AE04889395D4D1A5797B19695D5@MERCURY.roe.ac.uk" id="mid_A44BF53AA08AE04889395D4D1A5797B19695D5_MERCURY_roe_ac_uk" class=" cite" style="font-family: Calibri, 'Trebuchet MS', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 238);"><pre wrap="" style="font-family: 'Bitstream Vera Sans Mono', 'Lucida Console', Courier, monaco, monospace; font-size: 9pt;" class="">Dear Colleagues
We respectfully submit an IVOA Note about some proposed improvements to the VOEvent standard. We would appreciate some discussion on this email address and at the upcoming meeting in Chile.
Thank you for your attention
Roy Williams, Scott Barthelmy, Eric Bellm, Matthew Graham, Rob Seaman
==================
VOEvent Update: JSON and data models
Author(s):
Roy Williams, Scott Barthelmy, Eric Bellm, Matthew Graham, Rob Seaman
UTL:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ivoa.net/documents/Notes/VOEventJSON/index.html">http://ivoa.net/documents/Notes/VOEventJSON/index.html</a>
Abstract
We propose an extension of the VOEvent format, to translate the packet from XML to JSON – with no semantic change. We also propose to use the VOEvent data model system to define three data-model Groups: “Light Curve”, “Associated Sources”, and “Followup Imaging”. This straightforward update of VOEvent simplifies the syntax and provides simple, standard representation of common astronomical datasets.
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