From seaman at noao.edu Fri Oct 1 07:47:42 2010 From: seaman at noao.edu (Rob Seaman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 07:47:42 -0700 Subject: VOEvent v2.0 moving to proposed recommendation stage... Message-ID: <43F8CE89-CDB6-449B-B0B3-473414AF323E@email.arizona.edu> In the absence of comments on the v2.0 working draft, the VOEvent chair can only presume that the draft has been approved by acclamation of the working group. In that case, the next step is to move it to the proposed recommendation stage. Comment now or... Rob From seaman at noao.edu Fri Oct 1 08:40:09 2010 From: seaman at noao.edu (Rob Seaman) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 08:40:09 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Schema complexity References: Message-ID: <18668976-09EC-4370-A10D-3BFA67B38A53@noao.edu> Forwarded from an anonymous contributor without comment: > Here are the numbers I used when looking at the various schema sizes (I couldn't find an actual VOEvent2.0 .xsd file). The first number is the number of ComplexType elements followed by the number of simple elements (unique, these may be repeated like ) and then the total and # of attributes on the elements. FWIW. > > VOEvent-v1.1.xsd 12 + 29 = 41 attrs = 18 > > VOTable-beta.xsd 27 + 40 = 67 attrs = 77 > > simpletimeseries.xsd 31 + 47 = 78 attrs = 44 > > stc-v1.20.xsd 45 +130 = 175 attrs = 34 > region-v1.20.xsd 16 + 31 = 47 attrs = 3 > coords-v1.20.xsd 28 +114 = 142 attrs = 23 And to clarify: >> In the absence of comments on the v2.0 working draft, the VOEvent chair can only presume that the draft has been approved by acclamation of the working group. In that case, the next step is to move it to the proposed recommendation stage. > > Seriously, a 48 hour comment period from the time the draft was first posted ?? My intent is to provoke the WG discussion that I believe is necessary to develop a robust consensus toward the evolution of the final draft of v2.0. As with other IVOA standards, VOEvent v2.0 must withstand successive waves of review by the working group, by the Technical Coordination Committee composed of all the other WGs, and by the IVOA Exec. Rob From mjg at cacr.caltech.edu Mon Oct 11 17:34:33 2010 From: mjg at cacr.caltech.edu (Matthew Graham) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:34:33 -0700 Subject: VOEvent v2.0 moving to proposed recommendation stage... In-Reply-To: <43F8CE89-CDB6-449B-B0B3-473414AF323E@email.arizona.edu> References: <43F8CE89-CDB6-449B-B0B3-473414AF323E@email.arizona.edu> Message-ID: Hi Rob, On Oct 1, 2010, at 7:47 AM, Rob Seaman wrote: > In the absence of comments on the v2.0 working draft, the VOEvent chair can only presume that the draft has been approved by acclamation of the working group. In that case, the next step is to move it to the proposed recommendation stage. Where are your two reference implementations? Anyhow I have some comments on the WD: Overall: - You need to bring the specification in line with the latest IVOA spec guidelines: there needs to be a status section at the start, the version number needs to fit the new syntax (WD-VOEvent-2.0-2010mmdd.pdf). You also now need a section at the start stating how it fits in with the overall IVOA architecture. - A Table of Contents at the start would be very useful - I find the use of may and might vague and ambiguous: it's hard to figure what it required and not. Can we have a couple of capitalized SHOULDs and MUSTs were necessary. Maybe a compliance table in the appendix showing what needs to be in a minimal VOEvent. Is there a validator? - Why are some element names just initially capitalized and others all upper case, e.g. in and in . Can we be consistent throughout? - Is the new element called simpleTimeSeries or SimpleTimeSeries - there are references to both in the document - Why does use dataType but SimpleTimeSeries uses datatype? - The references are all out-of-sync between the reference list and the body of the document, e.g. RTML [15] - [15] is the IVORN reference, VOEvent Transport Note [21] - [21] is VOTable, etc., etc., etc. Specific: - p2, para.5: Missing period at the end of the paragraph - p3, para.2: VOEvents that cannot benefit from immediate follow-up are not good candidates - immediate follow-up for a SN might not be much use, a program of sustained follow-up is of much greater benefit - p3, sec.1.1: We have a new schema that is completely within the VOEvent schema - I'm confused - can you do this within XML Schema? - p3, sec.1.1: "element is clarified: section 3.7" - maybe "see section 3.7" is better - p3, sec.2.1: "Publishers will register..." and "Public repositories will register..." - what is the meaning of "will" here? Should they register? Must they register? - p4, sec.2.2: "There are several types of metadata schema that the registry can hold" - this seems to imply that registries have to understand the VOEvent schema - have we told the registry WG this? - p4, sec.2.2: VOEventStream and VOEventServer "the metadata packet..." - is this the same sort of metadata packet as VOEvent defines and is it sent around? Packet just seems the wrong word -p4, sec.2.2: How are VOEvent identifiers overloaded? The bit before the pound sign identifies the stream, the bit after the event within that stream. If this is overloading then my postal address is overloaded - the letters identify the road and the number the house within that road. - p4, sec.2.2: The first example - "ivo://nvo.caltech/voeventnet/catot. However, this IVORN will not resolve" - which IVORN - there are two in the current context. Actually the event IVORN should resolve in the registry but return the appropriate VOEventStream record. - p5, sec.2.2: "remain under debate in the VOEvent Working Group" - there is an internal working draft for this and we can promote it to a proper Working Draft - reference this - p5, sec.2.3: "These questions are addressed elsewhere" - good, where? - p5, sec.2.4: "(proposed elsewhere)" - reference them - there is at least something on the IVOA VOEvent group web pages - p5, sec.2.4.1: "Creating a Stream...publish am event" - "an event" - p5, sec.2.4.2: "when it becomes an IVOA recommendation" - remove this and just reference the document - p5, sec.2.4.2: "an informal query capability" - really? What is this? It's the first I've heard about it and is not defined in the VOEvent registry extension document. - p6, sec.3: "Multiple elements may be jointly contained within a larger XML document" - how does this work - what is the global root element? - p6, sec.3: Why can a VOEvent only contain at most one - what if I want more? - p6, sec.3.1.1: "It is anticipated that" - after 5 years of this, we should not be anticipating - p8, sec.3.3.1: How many s and s can a contain? - p8, sec.3.3.1: "the attribute takes precedence ofv the element" - over? - p8, sec.3.3.1: "normalization [**]" - missing reference - p9, sec.3.3.3: Why are you reinventing VOTable? If you are going to do this, you need to at least justify it - p10, sec.3.3.4: "and so it is possible to simply reference it using the element" - how does this work? There is nothing in the WhereWhen section saying that has an ID attribute. - p11, sec.3.3.4: Can a SimpleTimeSeries contain a Reference element? Or would it have to be a element? - p11, sec.3.4: Where is the simpler STC schema? If it is just the same elements and attributes but without the STC namespace then state this? What happens if I include full STC as in VOEvent 1.15 - is this still allowed? - p15, sec.3.6.3: "still in development" - there is an IVOA Note on the Object Type ontology --- Cheers, Matthew From seaman at noao.edu Tue Oct 12 11:43:11 2010 From: seaman at noao.edu (Robert Seaman) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:43:11 -0700 Subject: Change of VOEvent WG Vice Chair Message-ID: I am pleased to announce that Roy Williams has been tapped by the IVOA Exec to serve as vice chair of the VOEvent working group on the retirement of Alasdair Allan. Roy's great experience and ongoing engagement with numerous (basically "all") VOEvent-related activities will serve us well. (Roy was the original chair of the working group, of course.) Alasdair's own work on VOEvent began during the first VOEvent workshop, wresting control of the projector to start laying down the first lines of XML. With another alumnus, Robert White, Alasdair created the first prototype VOEvent network within just a few weeks of that initial workshop. His renewed participation will be welcome whenever proffered. Rob From seaman at noao.edu Tue Oct 12 12:16:23 2010 From: seaman at noao.edu (Robert Seaman) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:16:23 -0700 Subject: VOEvent v2.0 moving to proposed recommendation stage... In-Reply-To: References: <43F8CE89-CDB6-449B-B0B3-473414AF323E@email.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <6F7A7C29-144A-46D3-9CE2-9023B42DC3AC@noao.edu> Hi Matthew, >> In the absence of comments on the v2.0 working draft, the VOEvent chair can only presume that the draft has been approved by acclamation of the working group. In that case, the next step is to move it to the proposed recommendation stage. > > Where are your two reference implementations? Anyhow I have some comments on the WD: You have uncovered my (not very well hidden) agenda to provoke comments from the WG. Thanks for enumerating various hurdles to moving this forward. The first and biggest hurdle is to demonstrate consensus on the content of the draft. Roy has been working on one VOEvent v2.0 reference implementation in Python. Who has another? > - You need to bring the specification in line with the latest IVOA spec guidelines: there needs to be a status section at the start, the version number needs to fit the new syntax (WD-VOEvent-2.0-2010mmdd.pdf). You also now need a section at the start stating how it fits in with the overall IVOA architecture. > > - A Table of Contents at the start would be very useful Gratefully noted. In return, note that as a coauthor, "you" includes you. Consensus among the coauthors would be a good place to start :-) > - I find the use of may and might vague and ambiguous: it's hard to figure what it required and not. Can we have a couple of capitalized SHOULDs and MUSTs were necessary. We'll try to tighten up the subjunctive, but I'm personally skeptical of overemphasizing words even (or especially) in a normative document. > Maybe a compliance table in the appendix showing what needs to be in a minimal VOEvent. Is there a validator? A validator would be cool. A minimal VOEvent message is quite minimal - for instance, just a citation. > - Why are some element names just initially capitalized and others all upper case, e.g. in

and in . Can we be consistent throughout? Yes, we certainly should be. Glad to see the word "we". > - Is the new element called simpleTimeSeries or SimpleTimeSeries - there are references to both in the document Preference for usage here? > - Why does use dataType but SimpleTimeSeries uses datatype? Should be the same if the intent is the same. Names should be very different otherwise. > - The references are all out-of-sync between the reference list and the body of the document, e.g. RTML [15] - [15] is the IVORN reference, VOEvent Transport Note [21] - [21] is VOTable, etc., etc., etc. We'll need to fix this before promoting the draft. > Specific: > > - p2, para.5: Missing period at the end of the paragraph > > - p3, para.2: VOEvents that cannot benefit from immediate follow-up are not good candidates - immediate follow-up for a SN might not be much use, a program of sustained follow-up is of much greater benefit I don't think "immediate" and "sustained" are antonyms here. The intent is certainly to support the construction of lengthy chains of empirical investigation. In astronomical usage, immediate would tend to focus on meanings like: 5. without intervening medium or agent; direct: an immediate cause. 6. having a direct bearing: immediate consideration. 7. very close in relationship: my immediate family. 8. Philosophy . directly intuited. Otherwise, "immediately afterwards" might be a millennia hence. > - p3, sec.1.1: We have a new schema that is completely within the VOEvent schema - I'm confused - can you do this within XML Schema? Needs to be better described. In coordination with v2.0 we also want a robust schema requiring minimal external entanglements. > - p3, sec.1.1: "element is clarified: section 3.7" - maybe "see section 3.7" is better > > - p3, sec.2.1: "Publishers will register..." and "Public repositories will register..." - what is the meaning of "will" here? Should they register? Must they register? The IVOA cannot force registration. This is a bigger issue than VOEvent. Registration is, however, implicit in the IVORNs. > - p4, sec.2.2: "There are several types of metadata schema that the registry can hold" - this seems to imply that registries have to understand the VOEvent schema - have we told the registry WG this? > > - p4, sec.2.2: VOEventStream and VOEventServer "the metadata packet..." - is this the same sort of metadata packet as VOEvent defines and is it sent around? Packet just seems the wrong word I would say that VOEvent is eager to benefit from registry technology. Those members of the VOEvent WG who are also members of the Registry WG are encouraged to take the lead. > -p4, sec.2.2: How are VOEvent identifiers overloaded? The bit before the pound sign identifies the stream, the bit after the event within that stream. If this is overloading then my postal address is overloaded - the letters identify the road and the number the house within that road. Perhaps this can be reworded. > - p4, sec.2.2: The first example - "ivo://nvo.caltech/voeventnet/catot. However, this IVORN will not resolve" - which IVORN - there are two in the current context. Actually the event IVORN should resolve in the registry but return the appropriate VOEventStream record. Glad to see that the Registry WG is already on the job. > - p5, sec.2.2: "remain under debate in the VOEvent Working Group" - there is an internal working draft for this and we can promote it to a proper Working Draft - reference this > > - p5, sec.2.3: "These questions are addressed elsewhere" - good, where? > > - p5, sec.2.4: "(proposed elsewhere)" - reference them - there is at least something on the IVOA VOEvent group web pages Volunteers? > - p5, sec.2.4.1: "Creating a Stream...publish am event" - "an event" > > - p5, sec.2.4.2: "when it becomes an IVOA recommendation" - remove this and just reference the document > > - p5, sec.2.4.2: "an informal query capability" - really? What is this? It's the first I've heard about it and is not defined in the VOEvent registry extension document. > > - p6, sec.3: "Multiple elements may be jointly contained within a larger XML document" - how does this work - what is the global root element? > > - p6, sec.3: Why can a VOEvent only contain at most one - what if I want more? Will need to compare against v1.1. > - p6, sec.3.1.1: "It is anticipated that" - after 5 years of this, we should not be anticipating It takes as longs as it takes. I anticipate anticipating things indefinitely. > - p8, sec.3.3.1: How many s and s can a contain? How many do you think? > - p8, sec.3.3.1: "the attribute takes precedence ofv the element" - over? > > - p8, sec.3.3.1: "normalization [**]" - missing reference > > - p9, sec.3.3.3: Why are you reinventing VOTable? If you are going to do this, you need to at least justify it Your name is on the draft. What are your thoughts here? This is the beginning of the process, not the end. > - p10, sec.3.3.4: "and so it is possible to simply reference it using the element" - how does this work? There is nothing in the WhereWhen section saying that has an ID attribute. Thanks for spotting that. > - p11, sec.3.3.4: Can a SimpleTimeSeries contain a Reference element? Or would it have to be a element? It should be integrated with usage elsewhere in the packet. > - p11, sec.3.4: Where is the simpler STC schema? If it is just the same elements and attributes but without the STC namespace then state this? What happens if I include full STC as in VOEvent 1.15 - is this still allowed? Roy? > - p15, sec.3.6.3: "still in development" - there is an IVOA Note on the Object Type ontology Thanks! Rob From lefevre at fonteny.org Tue Oct 12 14:20:28 2010 From: lefevre at fonteny.org (Jean-Paul Le =?iso-8859-1?q?F=E8vre?=) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 23:20:28 +0200 Subject: VOEvent v2.0 moving to proposed recommendation stage... In-Reply-To: <6F7A7C29-144A-46D3-9CE2-9023B42DC3AC@noao.edu> References: <43F8CE89-CDB6-449B-B0B3-473414AF323E@email.arizona.edu> <6F7A7C29-144A-46D3-9CE2-9023B42DC3AC@noao.edu> Message-ID: <201010122320.29163.lefevre@fonteny.org> On Tuesday 12 October 2010 21:16:23 Robert Seaman wrote: > Roy has been working on one VOEvent v2.0 reference implementation in > Python. Who has another? Don't know whether or not it can be called a *reference* implementation but I've a working implementation written in Java. I compiled the schema using jaxb and was able to parse the sample events I found on Roy's web page. I've to say that it was much much easier than the v1.1 one ! -- ___________________________________________________________________ Jean-Paul Le F?vre * Mail : LeFevre at fonteny.org From seaman at noao.edu Mon Oct 18 12:47:59 2010 From: seaman at noao.edu (Robert Seaman) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:47:59 -0700 Subject: Hotwiring the Transient Universe Message-ID: <713076C2-0A3E-43BD-9F19-417669F11FAB@noao.edu> ?Hola! In preparation for the upcoming ADASS tutorial, "Techniques for time domain astronomy", the "Hotwiring the Transient Universe" editors have finished up assembling the introductory book that several from the VOEvent WG have labored upon in lieu of the Hotwired II proceedings. This is now available online: https://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/hotwiring-the-transient-universe/13205496 We're having a crate of them sent to Boston and will be handing out the book gratis at the tutorial, but if your pounding heart won't let you wait, the single copy price is $5.77 (plus shipping). We'll also arrange to send copies to each of the authors and the Hotwired II attendees, and will likely flood the market from the VAO booth at the Seattle AAS, etc. Many thanks to all the authors. Since time domain astronomy is a moving target, planning is already underway for a 2nd edition. Your further contributions will be most welcome. We will be updating the Hotwired conference series website, http://hotwireduniverse.org, with related content on an adaptive timescale. Thanks to NOAO's Pete Marenfeld for yet another stellar cover illustration! (The thumbnail online doesn't do it justice.) Editor #3 is personally indebted to editors #1 and #2, Roy Williams and Sarah Emery Bunn, for their dedication to this project. Many thanks to Tom Vestrand and LANL for funding both Hotwired II and this volume. Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaman at noao.edu Mon Oct 18 13:47:44 2010 From: seaman at noao.edu (Robert Seaman) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 13:47:44 -0700 Subject: Hotwiring the Transient Universe In-Reply-To: <713076C2-0A3E-43BD-9F19-417669F11FAB@noao.edu> References: <713076C2-0A3E-43BD-9F19-417669F11FAB@noao.edu> Message-ID: <9EC1653A-E0E1-4D35-849D-6E926C9A7EEC@noao.edu> There was a request for the table of contents. This is available via the book preview from Lulu, but I don't see how to provide a direct link. I've attached a PDF, which also acknowledges the contributions of the several authors. Note that we chose to include the working drafts of VOEvent v2.0 and SEAP 0.5 rather than the stable normative standard. Such a book is always a snapshot of a moving target. Comments regarding other editorial decisions (eg, the omission of the transport note) are directed to the VOEvent WG mailing list and might best be approached as suggestions for the 2nd edition or for content to be hosted on http://hotwireduniverse.org Rob -- -- On Oct 18, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Robert Seaman wrote: > ?Hola! > > In preparation for the upcoming ADASS tutorial, "Techniques for time domain astronomy", the "Hotwiring the Transient Universe" editors have finished up assembling the introductory book that several from the VOEvent WG have labored upon in lieu of the Hotwired II proceedings. This is now available online: > > https://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/hotwiring-the-transient-universe/13205496 > > We're having a crate of them sent to Boston and will be handing out the book gratis at the tutorial, but if your pounding heart won't let you wait, the single copy price is $5.77 (plus shipping). We'll also arrange to send copies to each of the authors and the Hotwired II attendees, and will likely flood the market from the VAO booth at the Seattle AAS, etc. > > Many thanks to all the authors. Since time domain astronomy is a moving target, planning is already underway for a 2nd edition. Your further contributions will be most welcome. We will be updating the Hotwired conference series website, http://hotwireduniverse.org, with related content on an adaptive timescale. > > Thanks to NOAO's Pete Marenfeld for yet another stellar cover illustration! (The thumbnail online doesn't do it justice.) > > Editor #3 is personally indebted to editors #1 and #2, Roy Williams and Sarah Emery Bunn, for their dedication to this project. Many thanks to Tom Vestrand and LANL for funding both Hotwired II and this volume. > > Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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