[ssig] TimeSeries of positions (Asteroid)

Fri Nov 23 16:20:02 CET 2018

Hi Rob

Good to "see" you back on IVOA mailing lists :-). Indeed, the IVOA is 
building bridges with the Planetary Community and we created some time 
ago a dedicated Solar System Interest Group 
(http://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/IvoaSS), led by Baptiste 
Cecconi (from Observatoire de Paris) and Steve Joy (from UCLA, and 
PDS/PPI Node Operations Manager) to ensure synergy and closer 
collaboration.

They've been really active in the last Interop meeting and they have 
started to address some of your points I believe. I've put them all in 
cc, including the dedicated SSIG mailing list so the discussion can 
continue there. I'm sure Baptiste and Steve will address your points 
better than me...

I hope this helps and it would be great to have you on-board on these!

Cheers

Christophe

On 23/11/2018 15:35, Rob Seaman wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Not sure which of these lists I'm still subscribed to, but copying all 
> from the original message. Solar system science cases are the poster 
> child for the various features of STC supporting the near-field. 
> Hopefully IVOA is still embracing the full richness of space-time 
> coordinates?
>
> One wonders if IVOA has engaged with the planetary science community 
> (our solar system or others) regarding these use cases? This applies 
> both to requirements discovery as well as a concept of operations and 
> ultimate uptake in support of this community.
>
> Some context and links: A reminder that IVOA is first and foremost an 
> IAU activity under Commission B2. Solar system issues fall under 
> several commissions, e.g., ephemerides under Comm X2. The IAU has a 
> recent standard for small bodies astrometry / photometry:
>
>   * https://github.com/IAU-ADES/ADES-Master
>
> There are the usual debates about JSON vs XML, etc. The long time 
> center for such activities, the Minor Planet Center:
>
>   * https://www.minorplanetcenter.net
>
> was recently reorganized under the Small Bodies Node of the Planetary 
> Data System. If the IVOA is not coordinating with the PDS it should 
> be, both under the SBN and other nodes:
>
>   * https://pds-smallbodies.astro.umd.edu
>
> The Planetary Science community has the advantage of being able to 
> send spacecraft to visit its objects of study, and these are supported 
> by diverse activities at NASA centers, in particular JPL and GSFC, e.g.:
>
>   * https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/naif/
>   * https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons
>   * https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov
>
> For NEOs this includes:
>
>   * https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov
>
> With other external groups like:
>
>   * https://newton.spacedys.com
>   * http://asteroid.lowell.edu
>
> The community database of asteroid time series is explicitly curated at:
>
>   * http://www.minorplanet.info/lightcurvedatabase.html
>
> This would be a good site to scavenge science requirements. Various 
> familiar and unfamiliar archive sites support different solar system 
> data sets that should be of interest to IVOA. Many sites are in states 
> of active development.
>
> There are meetings that IVOA should participate in to engage with the 
> Planetary Science community:
>
>   * https://aas.org/meetings/dps50
>   * https://astrogeology.usgs.gov/groups/planetary-data-workshop
>     (somewhat similar to ADASS)
>   * https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news/2017/03/21/2018-planetary-science-informatics-and-data-analytics-conference/
>   * http://hotwireduniverse.org
>
> At the recent DPS there were booths for ADS and WWT, but I didn't 
> notice an IVOA presence. Apologies if this was an oversight on my 
> part. The Hotwired meetings started as a joint series between VOEvent 
> and the Heterogeneous Telescope Networks consortium and continues now 
> under the IAU Time Domain Working Group (and the AAS WG-TDA, as well). 
> HTN is now spearheaded by the bricks-and-mortar Las Cumbres 
> Observatory. Several from the VOEvent WG continue to be involved, but 
> an enhanced IVOA participation would be welcome in 2019! Moving 
> objects in the solar system have been a topic since the first meeting, 
> but especially since Hotwired V.
>
> The main belt asteroids are foreground to celestial transients, but 
> are background to NEOs. IVOA use cases will always need to accommodate 
> the multiple spatial regimes, and this will have implications for time 
> standards, protocols, and infrastructure. This includes interesting 
> variations like Kuiper Belt Objects and artificial satellites / 
> orbital debris.
>
> Rob Seaman, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory
>
> --
>
>
> On 11/23/18 2:53 AM, François Bonnarel wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This email sent yesterday to the three lists was apparently not sent 
>> to voevent. (Time domain maling list). I was apaprently not 
>> registered there.
>>
>> For those on several lists, sorry for the SPAM
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> François
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Message transféré --------
>> Sujet : 	TimeSeries of position (Asteroid)
>> Date : 	Thu, 22 Nov 2018 21:51:19 +0100
>> De : 	François Bonnarel <francois.bonnarel at astro.unistra.fr>
>> Pour : 	dm at ivoa.net <dm at ivoa.net>, <dal at ivoa.net> <dal at ivoa.net>, 
>> voevent at ivoa.net
>>
>>
>>
>> Der Dave, all,*
>>
>> Before interop Dave asked me to provide how a TimeSeries of Asteroid
>> could look like with the current ts model proposal and Utypes serialisation.
>>
>>   
>>> Someone recently described to me a use case that I haven't seen in our
>>>   discussions.
>>>
>>>   To help me understand how to use the new model, could you send me a
>>>   simple example of how a time series of position over time would look ?
>>>
>>>   For a single moving object we would get multiple ra/dec or Point
>>>   values plotted against time.
>>>
>>>   For a mode complex example, multiple position and magnitude values
>>>   plotted against time.
>>
>>
>> You can find a "dummy example" of this at this URL :
>>
>>
>>
>> http://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/time-domain/time-series/note/DATA/Proposed_Serializations/UTYPES/AsteroidSimple.xml
>>
>>
>> Could be from gaia for an Asteroid.
>>
>> Then Dave gave more details for the second more complex example
>>
>>> Two use cases from the Gaia meeting.
>>>
>>>   Exoplanets, the star will change both brightness and position by tiny
>>> amounts linked to the planet's orbit. Very small and slow changes in
>>>   both position and brightness, hard to detect above the noise.
>>>
>>>   Near earth asteroid will be travelling very fast, and change
>>>   brightness in response to distance from the sun, position relative to
>>>   the sun, and rotation and shape of the asteroid itself. Very large and
>>>   rapid changes in both position and brightness.
>>>
>>>   Both are valid cases for time series of positions and magnitudes.
>>
>> This is an attempt for a Near Earth Asteroid
>> http://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/time-domain/time-series/note/DATA/Proposed_Serializations/UTYPES/AsteroidFull.xml
>>
>> Data are dummy of course. but with about 1 magnitude amplitude and 1deg position change in 10 days !!!
>>
>> /*Changes for the Exoplanets use case can be easilly done :*/
>>
>> There will be no real "look and feel" change for the magnitudes.
>>
>> For position, the best is probably to set the mid position of the star in the refPOsition of COOSYS (see note below)  and to have the lon and lat columns giving the deviation from this
>>   position along the ra and dec axes (and no more ecliptic longitude and latitude). The unit for these two columns will probbaly be "mas" instead of "deg".
>>   
>> Cheers
>>
>> François
>>
>> COOSYS note : currently there is no "refPosition" attribute in COOSYS. We propose to add one , taking the opportunity of the change in VOTable schema required to introduce TIMESYS.
>>
>> this attribute allows accurate distinctions of positions computed from BARYCENTER, TOPOCENTER, GEOCENTER, as well as definitions of standalone  "local" spatial frames to code   for
>>   very accurate  measurements.
>>
>>

-- 
Thanks in advance

Cheers

Christophe

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Christophe ARVISET                       Christophe.Arviset at esa.int

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