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Dear Bo, dear Alberto,<br>
<br>
the tool you are using for validation does not handle properly
contatenation for 3 terms especially as you describe when two SS
need to be concatenated. <br>
<br>
we use instead this assigning tool now : <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cds.u-strasbg.fr/UCD/cgi-bin/descr2ucd"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://cds.u-strasbg.fr/UCD/cgi-bin/descr2ucd</a><br>
<br>
from the definition : "luminosity in V band min value" <br>
it builds : <i>phys.luminosity;em.opt.V;stat.min</i><br>
<br>
if you want to validate your ucd fields, I think the stilts tool
from Mark Taylor will help a lot <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.star.bristol.ac.uk/~mbt/stilts/sun256/votlint-usage.html"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.star.bristol.ac.uk/~mbt/stilts/sun256/votlint-usage.html</a><br>
<br>
here attached is a test votable : <br>
when you install stilts and run this command : <br>
<i>>> stilts -verbose votlint ucd=true validate=true
votable=./testucd.xml <br>
you get this result <br>
</i>INFO: votlint version=null validate=true ucd=true unit=null
maxrepeat=4 votable=./testucd.xml out=-<br>
ERROR (l.22, c.97): Bad UCD "em.opt.V;phys.luminosity;stat.min"
(BAD_SEQUENCE): UCD starting with a SECONDARY UCD word: "em.opt.V"!
Such words can NOT be in first position.<br>
<br>
so the 2 SS combinations are valid and only em.opt is detected in
the wrong position , which is correct. <br>
<br>
I encourage you to use votlint for your checks. <br>
<br>
best , Mireille<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 25/02/2022 à 16:59, Bo
Milvang-Jensen a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:e57a52de-6661-8066-c22a-cfcf342fc258@astro.ku.dk">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Dear Alberto and all,<br>
<br>
Thank you for adding me in cc. I am the user who is working on
assigning UCDs to 1200 catalogue columns, prior to publication
in ESO's Phase 3 system (supported by Laura Mascetti), and that
is a bit of a headache. Just to spell out this particular
problem: the UCD1+ v1.4 document only says (in my reading) that
an S word cannot be first, it does not say that an S word has to
be last! but the validator at CDS seems to think so.<br>
<br>
This means that according to the validator at CDS there is no
way to construct a UCD describing a minimum value of a V-band
luminosity, as the corresponding 3 words cannot be combined in
any way:<br>
<br>
phys.luminosity;stat.min;em.opt.V --- violates the claimed ESS
rule<br>
phys.luminosity;em.opt.V;stat.min --- violates the claimed ESS
rule<br>
stat.min;phys.luminosity;em.opt.V --- of course not allowed
(stat.min: S word)<br>
<br>
The validator will also complain about the sequences QSS and
PSS.<br>
<br>
PS: I have a couple of other questions/problems with the UCD
standard that I would like to ask/report. What is the best
channel?<br>
<br>
Kind regards, Bo<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/22 4:31 PM, Alberto Micol
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:77952C86-B069-431E-AD50-CB1FD9C6DA92@eso.org">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Dear CDS and UCD editors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">I'd like to follow up on two original
inquiries of mine, both sent 21.02.2020, attached below,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">and ask two questions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">We currently have an inquiry from one of our
ESO principal investigators (in cc),<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">who needs to identify the correct UCDs needed
to publish a catalog,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">and his inquiry is exactly on the same issue,
the CDS validator, published at:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US"><a
href="http://cdsweb.u-strasbg.fr/UCD/tools.htx"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://cdsweb.u-strasbg.fr/UCD/tools.htx</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Using your "validate" form in that page on
the following UCD:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">phot.flux;em.radio;arith.ratio<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">one gest the error:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New"">8 **** invalid sequence of syntax codes (ESS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Same result for BO's
UCD:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">phys.luminosity;stat.min;em.opt.V<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New"">8 **** invalid sequence of syntax codes (ESS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">And similar result for
my UCD (see first attachment):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">phot.flux.density;em.wl;stat.uncalib;src.net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">where I get:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New"">8 **** invalid sequence of syntax codes (E</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New"" lang="EN-US">Q</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New"">SS)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">But if I remove any of
the two "S" words, than I no longer get an error,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">despite the fact that
a EQS should be equivalent to an ESS, given that Q can be
either a P or an S.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So, it seems to me
that your validator does not accept 2 "S" words in a UCD.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Please note that I
took that first UCD above (</span><span
style="font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black"
lang="EN-US">phot.flux;em.radio;arith.ratio</span><span
lang="EN-US"> )<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">from a list of
examples of <b>legal UCDs</b> in the UCD standard itself:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">see <a
href="https://www.ivoa.net/documents/REC/UCD/UCD-20050812.html#toc-header-10"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://www.ivoa.net/documents/REC/UCD/UCD-20050812.html#toc-header-10</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So, that must be a
valid UCD.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">Q1: Could you
please verify the logic of the validator, also
considering what follows?<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Before concluding, let
me add a potential explanation of this issue…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Probably this is the
result of a statement in the IVOA endorsed note, par. D2,
at:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a
href="https://www.ivoa.net/documents/UCD1+/20210616/EN-UCDlist-1.4-20210616.html#tth_sEcD.2"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.ivoa.net/documents/UCD1+/20210616/EN-UCDlist-1.4-20210616.html#tth_sEcD.2</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">which states that:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">"</span><span
class="footnotesize">P, S and Q are the labels expressing
in which position of a UCD expression a term can be used,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="footnotesize">P in first
place, S as suffix, and Q in both allowed position: head
and tail.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The word "tail" is
probably taken literally by your validator, resulting in
this 2 "S" words-error.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">But it is that
endorsed note that uses "tail" in a wrong way, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">as explained in my
second attachment (see therein: "contradiction with the
sentence in B").<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">Q2: I'd like to ask
the UCD editors to please consider my suggested
amendment to the standard (see second attachment),<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">So to avoid any
possible confusion on the word "tail".<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Many thanks, and sorry
for the long email,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Alberto<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="color:black">Alberto Micol <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:amicol@eso.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><amicol@eso.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, 21. February 2020 at 10:12<br>
<b>To: </b>CDS question <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:cds-question@unistra.fr"
moz-do-not-send="true"><cds-question@unistra.fr></a><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Laura Mascetti <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lmascett@partner.eso.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><lmascett@partner.eso.org></a>,
Baptiste Cecconi <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:baptiste.cecconi@obspm.fr"
moz-do-not-send="true"><baptiste.cecconi@obspm.fr></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>UCD validator</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Using the UCD
validator service:</span><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a
href="http://cds.u-strasbg.fr/UCD/cgi-bin/WS_validate"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://cds.u-strasbg.fr/UCD/cgi-bin/WS_validate</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">on the following
ucd1+: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">phot.flux.density;em.wl;stat.uncalib;src.net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I get the following
error:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">8 **** invalid sequence of syntax codes
(EQSS)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">It is unclear to me
what the problem is, as the em.wl (Q) is immediately
following the photometric part (E),<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">and the two secondary
(S) tokens are indeed at the end of the ucd.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Could you let me know
what the problem is, and then maybe modify the validator
to provide a more explanatory text,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">as it does, for
example, when inputting:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">phot.flux.density;stat.uncalib;src.net;em.wl<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">whose error is clearly
telling the user what to repair:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New"">8 **** invalid sequence of syntax codes (ESSQ)
S word must be last<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Many thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Alberto<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">PS: I understand that
the UCD standard gives contradictory information regarding
the Q tokens, I will write to Baptiste to clarify that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0cm"><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="color:black">Alberto Micol <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:amicol@eso.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><amicol@eso.org></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, 21. February 2020 at 10:36<br>
<b>To: </b>Baptiste Cecconi <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:baptiste.cecconi@obspm.fr"
moz-do-not-send="true"><baptiste.cecconi@obspm.fr></a><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Laura Mascetti <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lmascett@partner.eso.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><lmascett@partner.eso.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>UCD1+: some confusion on the "Q" tokens</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Ciao Baptiste,</span><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I'd like to highlight
to you a (slight) inconsistency in the UCD1+ standard
(v1.3), but also repeated in the current </span>Proposed
Endorsed Note 2020-02-12<span lang="EN-US"> v1.4.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">In: </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SFSX1200;color:#004F9B">A.2
P or S syntax code: Which is the most pertinent position
for a UCD word? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i><span
style="font-family:SFRM1095">P, S and Q are the labels
expressing in which position of a UCD expression a term
can be used, P in first place, S as suffix, and Q in
both allowed position: head and tail. </span><o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The issue I have is
with "… in both allowed position(s): head and tail", which
seems to indicate that a Q term </span><span
style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">can either be first or
last, but not in the middle of a longer ucd, and this
would be in contradiction with the sentence in B:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:SFSX1440;color:#004F9B">B
List of valid words </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol type="1" start="3">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"> <i><span style="font-family:SFRM1095">“Q”
means that the word can be used indifferently as first
or secondary word; <o:p></o:p></span></i></li>
</ol>
<p><span style="font-family:SFRM1095" lang="EN-US">Can I
suggest to modify that sentence in A2, as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i><span
style="font-family:SFRM1095">P, S and Q are the labels
expressing in which position of a UCD expression a term
can be used, P in first place, S as suffix, and Q </span></i><i><span
style="font-family:SFRM1095" lang="EN-US">either as P or
S.<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:SFRM1095" lang="EN-US">?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:SFRM1095" lang="EN-US">Many thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:SFRM1095" lang="EN-US">Alberto</span><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
--
Mireille Louys, MCF (Associate Professor)
Centre de données CDS IPSEO, Images, Laboratoire Icube
Observatoire de Strasbourg Telecom Physique Strasbourg
11 rue de l'Université 300, Bd Sebastien Brandt CS 10413
F- 67000-STRASBOURG F-67412 ILLKIRCH Cedex
Tel: +33 3 68 85 24 34</pre>
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