<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear All, <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is very interesting discussion indeed. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am not sure we may define a rigorous hierarchy between the terms “Telescope”, “Facility”, “Instrument” and “detector”. Depending on the context and on people, some terms may overlap. I’m not sure we can reach easily a consensus vocabulary.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Some recent output from the Research Data Alliance are in line with the Paul’s suggestion <i class="">that the observatory choses to label its data products and the distinctions they make, rather than some globally agreed definition</i>: the RDA produced a recommendation on the persistent identification of Instrument <a href="https://rda-pidinst.readthedocs.io/en/latest/white-paper/index.html#" class="">https://rda-pidinst.readthedocs.io/en/latest/white-paper/index.html#</a> . </div><div class="">They are agnostic about what an instrument is, but they provide rules & mechanisms to identify it with all the required granularity and metadata. Those metadata values (cf. Par. 5.1 of the linked doc) may be free texts or coming from controlled vocabularies. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The RDA approach solve the aspects about the non-ambiguous identification of the entity producing data. But this not tell how to make easily queries like “give me all data from HST”, since we have to map somehow the generic human understandable “HST” term to the set of all PIDs corresponding to the instruments on the HST. </div><div class="">For this last need the solution proposed by Markus seems reasonable. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In addition, should we think at adding a field like “Instrument PID” to achieve the unique identification? </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best, </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Carlo.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> <br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 09 Feb 2022, at 13:58, Paul Harrison <<a href="mailto:paul.harrison@manchester.ac.uk" class="">paul.harrison@manchester.ac.uk</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Hi,</span><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 2022-02 -09, at 10:13, Markus Demleitner <<a href="mailto:msdemlei@ari.uni-heidelberg.de" class="">msdemlei@ari.uni-heidelberg.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="">Dear Semantics folks,<br class=""><br class="">On Thu, Feb 03, 2022 at 02:20:46PM +0100, Tamara Civera wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">I am writing to this group, because trying to unify the facility name in the<br class="">different VO services offered by my observatory (SIAP, Obscore,...) the<br class="">following doubt has arisen: *Should the facility name describe only the<br class="">facility or observatory, the telescope or both?*<br class=""><br class="">According to the different VO protocols documentation:<br class=""><br class="">Obscore: "B7.1 The Facility class codes information about the observatory or<br class="">facility used to collect the data."<br class=""><br class="">Obscore: "C.3 <FIELDname="facility_name"datatype="char"ucd="<a href="http://meta.id/" class="">meta.id</a>;instr.tel"utype="obscore:Provenance.ObsConfig.Facility.name"xtype="adql:VARCHAR"arraysize="128*"><DESCRIPTION>telescope<br class="">name</DESCRIPTION></FIELD>"<br class=""><br class="">SIAP 2.0: "2.1.12 The FACILITY parameter is a string-valued parameter that<br class="">specifies the name of the facility (usually telescope) where the data was<br class="">acquired. The value is compared with the facility_name from the ObsCore [7]<br class="">data model"<br class=""><br class="">VoDataService: "3.1.1 The observatory or facility used to collect the data<br class="">contained or managed by this resource."<br class=""></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">Tamara raises a very valid point here, one that I've often briefly<br class="">puzzled over only to just move on and ignore the problem. <br class=""></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">I would like to point out that this area is also a central issue for the ProposalDM (<a href="https://github.com/ivoa/ProposalDM" class="">https://github.com/ivoa/ProposalDM</a>)</div><div class="">that is currently in development. It is wrestling with the distinctions between telescopes, instruments and backends and</div><div class="">what combinations of them constitute and “observing system” (which might be the same thing as a Facility </div><div class="">if that is to be a useful separate concept…). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My feeling from general english language usage that facility is a sort of “collective noun” used in the plural e.g. sports facilities and when used in the</div><div class="">sigular tends to relate to a building e.g. the nuclear research facility, and feels more like it would apply to more than just a telescope.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As well as working out the relations between these concepts, it is also important as you point out to</div><div class="">have a way of making naming aliases for instances.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am not too convinced that a vocabulary is necessarily the best way to solve this - my feeling that some sort of</div><div class="">dynamic service that allows observatories to curate their offerings might be better. It might be that this is </div><div class="">doable within the registry, but it does depend on the complexity of the model that is required.</div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">I think that if we want these fields to be reliably usable, we ought<br class="">to make up our minds (and then perhaps clarify the various standards<br class="">using errata).<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>It does seem that facility is not well enough defined to be useful, so I think that it is essential to clarify with errata.<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">As usual, I'd suggest we start by working out what functionality<br class="">should be enabled by the feature; historically: what motivated the<br class="">addition of facility_name in Obscore and VODataService (and,<br class="">conversely, what made the SSAP authors to only have instrument). If<br class="">anyone reading this remembers, please chime in.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>I suspect it was just a combination of lack of coordination of a global solution rather than any actual intent.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">Which reminds me: The FITS standard<br class=""><<a href="https://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/fcg/standard_dict.html" class="">https://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/fcg/standard_dict.html</a>> has the<br class="">TELESCOP keyword for pretty much this -- does anyone remember why we<br class="">didn't just take that over? Was it because we wanted to cover<br class="">devices that don't feel like telescopes at all like, perhaps the GBM<br class="">aboard Fermi, the Icecube-like neutrino detectors, or LIGO/Virgo?)<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">After this, I'm frankly tempted to try and clearly state that<br class="">"facility" should be, to first order, the telescope, and we ought to<br class="">explictly link it to FITS' TELESCOP. Which, by the way, is defined<br class="">as<br class=""><br class=""></div></div></blockquote>I think that this would be a good pragmatic step</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""> The value field shall contain a character string identifying the<br class=""> telescope used to acquire the data associated with the header.<br class=""><br class="">I can't say I'm too happy with using "telescope" in this definition<br class="">as our "collectors" are becoming more diverse and exotic. In a way,<br class="">I'd be tempted to try and separate facility_name and instrument into<br class="">"device that collects/concentrates messenger particles" and "device<br class="">that detects messenger particles". For Icecube-like devices, that<br class="">would happen to coincide, but that's perhaps not problematic.<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>I think that your definitions here are probably good enough - where there is some blurring of the concepts, what is really important is the </div><div class="">way that the observatory choses to label its data products and the distinctions they make, rather than some globally agreed definition (although you would hope that each observatory would try to follow the spirit of the definitions) - which again</div><div class="">is why I feel that some sort of service where these things are discoverable for each observatory might be the best solution.</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">Well, having said all this: I suspect there's a bit of prior art on<br class="">this. If you have pointers, by all means share them. And would<br class="">anyone volunteer to run a discussion on this problem at the Interop?<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></div>The PDS from NASA is an attempt to provide a comprehensive data description that shamefully I have only recently become aware of</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a href="https://pds.nasa.gov/datastandards/documents/current-version.shtml" class="">https://pds.nasa.gov/datastandards/documents/current-version.shtml</a></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">and interestingly facility is here</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a href="https://pds.nasa.gov/datastandards/documents/dd/current/PDS4_PDS_DD_1H00.html#d5e9395" class="">https://pds.nasa.gov/datastandards/documents/dd/current/PDS4_PDS_DD_1H00.html#d5e9395</a></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">which they restrict to being a terrestrial laboratory or observatory.</div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Paul</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>