<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div>Hi,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 2020-05 -07, at 10:58, Markus Demleitner <<a href="mailto:msdemlei@ari.uni-heidelberg.de" class="">msdemlei@ari.uni-heidelberg.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">But: before I put in #co-generated into my service and thus make</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">François' proposal for VEP-004 valid and publishable: Pat, what</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">you're saying is you would not like the proposed description:</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> Data products derived from the same progenitor as #this. This</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> could be a light-curve for an object catalog derived from repeated</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> observations, the dataset processed using a different pipeline, or</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> the like.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">for #co-generated? And how much would you dislike it? [as in: enough</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">to block the VEP? Because then I'd probably save the time until</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">we're closer to consensus or someone else goes ahead with</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">#co-generated]</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">It strikes me that as finding the correct term is proving so difficult then it is indeed the description/concept that is the problem, and perhaps it should be dropped entirely - I get the feeling that what is is actually desired to be expressed in several of these use cases is beginning to move into provenance DM territory.</div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I always like to keep things simple and imagine what a fairly dumb client is going to do with the information to further process it rather than what a human looking at the pointed to information can do, and I generally think that in many cases you cannot really do better than “related” - Markus had said something similar earlier in the thread</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">#see-also -- the idea is that it's "data people might be interested</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">in when looking at #this". The trouble is that once I try to have a</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">clear definition for what this actually means I fail. You see,</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">essentially all datalink terms would fall under #see-also, and I</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">couldn't find a good criterion to exclude them.</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">So, if we do something along the lines see-also, it would have to be</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">see-also-if-X, where X could be, perhaps, "scientifically exploiting</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">#this" or "you have found something interesting in #this and would</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">like to learn more about it" or whatever. I think you'll agree that</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">these proposals are...</span><font face="Monaco" size="3" class="">unconvincing</font><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">.</span></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>I think that the above is the concept that most people in this thread would like to try to express in all the varied ways that the use cases have shown, and that is clearly not a single vocabulary term, but possibly a whole ontology.</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">After this, I'm essentially back to #sibling, which is well-defined</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">and (IMHO) easy to explain, which, as concepts go, is great. It's</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">also been useful *for publishing* in several other data collection,</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class="">such as when people did line maps for a spectral cube.</span><br style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;" class=""></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">in the 'family tree' of relationships, the ”interesting" linked data might be a cousin/uncle etc. - so this is where I come to a different conclusion about all the contradictions that occur when a particular choice is made - just drop the concept.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Because linking is a very powerful tool, there is a tendency to want to put in lots of links, but can you be sure that you are presenting a “complete” set of links. The IVOA has a whole lot of “discovery” protocols which are in competition with these “hard” links, and in particular with this “sibling concept” - if my original search did not tell me about these siblings why is datalink trying to tell me? If I am really interested in (otherwise only loosely related) things that have come from the same progenitor, then I think I should be looking at provenance DM information.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Paul.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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