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<p>Hi again,</p>
<p>an answer below<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 11/05/2020 à 13:05, Paul Harrison a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CEE21162-195F-4924-BC17-7F4F28476660@manchester.ac.uk">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Hi,<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 2020-05 -11, at 10:37, Markus Demleitner <<a
href="mailto:msdemlei@ari.uni-heidelberg.de" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">msdemlei@ari.uni-heidelberg.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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!important;" class="">And while you're right, we're
categorising along provenance relations</span><br
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">here, I
think that absolutely makes sense for datalink (which is
why</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">we've
had #progenitor and #derivation from day one) because it</span><br
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class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">intersects
with what you'd like to do with the data:</span><br
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<div>I do not see a problem with going up the provenance tree -
that is going to result in a fairly well bounded small number
of results, which hopefully the data provider can ensure is
complete - however, in any other direction the true number of
links is theoretically unbounded with two problems;</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>* the data provider is potentially only aware of the things
they have done to the data which leads to the completeness
problem (especially in the #derivation direction)</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>* as a client, I risk being overwhelmed by the number of
responses, and I don’t really have the tools that I have at
the access protocol level to filter to the things that I am
interested in.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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!important;" class="">Debugging? -> #progenitor [wait
for my VEP pushing #calibration below</span><br
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class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> #progenitor]</span><br
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class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Analyses
other people have made? -> #derivation</span><br
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class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Other
things people have done with the observation? ->
#sibling/#co-derived</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0,
0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
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class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>"other things people have done with the data" is almost the
raison d’être for the VO and it seems most naturally
implemented by a query.</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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!important;" class="">What's still missing is "Other
things I might like to know</span><br style="caret-color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px;
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class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">about...<ugh>",
as in, perhaps "HST spectra taken for items shown on</span><br
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class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">this
image". I think that's, indeed, a tough one because
you'd have</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">to say
what <ugh> is, and datalink doesn't really have a
way to have</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><ugh>
anything but "the thing you've just discovered", and that</span><br
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class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">absolutely
does not cover the use case I've made up above (where</span><br
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class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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is "objects in this image" rather than "this image").</span><br
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class="">
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Given
that, for now I'd like to agree with you on:</span><br
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<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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<blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Monaco;
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class="">Because linking is a very powerful tool, there is
a tendency to<br class="">
want to put in lots of links, but can you be sure that
you are<br class="">
presenting a “complete” set of links. The IVOA has a whole
lot of<br class="">
“discovery” protocols which are in competition with these
“hard”<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I hope
as people get used to things like the Aladin 10's
discovery</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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it'll be more natural to them to look for the HST spectra
(or</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">any
spectra at all) using a generic client, rather than get
them</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco;
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float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">pre-packaged
from the service operator.</span><br style="caret-color:
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</div>
</blockquote>
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<div>In the case of CDS being the service operator, then I can see
that the non-progenitor directions are more appealing as they
are collecting more of the information about data relationships
than most, and their “fixed” datalinks will be more
trustworthy/complete than most. However, it just seems to me to
be against the “spirit” of the way that the VO operates, and a
query against the provenance DM would be more approriate for
getting this information. There are questions of course about
whether the TAP style queries against this model would be
expressive enough to make these queries ’simple’, but that is
really a question of potentially improving ProvDM and queries
against it.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>For sure Provenance DM is much more complete than these "poor
datalink semantics" values we are trying to define. DataLink is a
very basic metadata linking solution. can be seen as "DataModel
for the poor" when nothing else can be done by providers.</p>
<p>Attaching a full provenance tree to each record in ou main table
would be much richer. But not always possible</p>
<p>The paradox is that one thing we could do to link such provenance
metadata to entities is to use DataLink with a semantics field =
"provenance" which doesn't exist yet because we don't have enough
existing provenance databases or repositories.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CEE21162-195F-4924-BC17-7F4F28476660@manchester.ac.uk">
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Anyway, I realise that I am have been 'semi-detached' from
the VO for a while now and it is pretty irritating when people
come late to a design process. We will be putting effort into a
proper VO compliant e-MERLIN archive later this year, and I will
have a go at doing things the ProvDM as a prototype to that
approach.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>That's great to know! radio astronomy interest group was just
created and one of the goals identified by some projects (Eg JIVE
but also other RadioAstronomy projects including SKA) is to
explore provenance. This would be nice to have Merlin people
collaborating in the RIG !!!</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>François<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CEE21162-195F-4924-BC17-7F4F28476660@manchester.ac.uk">
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Cheers,<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Paul.</div>
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