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<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>I don't really know if these belongs to apps or to semantics</p>
<p>cheers</p>
<p>François<br>
</p>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Sujet :
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<td>Re: Datalink vocabulary extension: sibling?</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Date : </th>
<td>Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:51:15 +0200</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">De : </th>
<td>François Bonnarel
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:francois.bonnarel@astro.unistra.fr"><francois.bonnarel@astro.unistra.fr></a></td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Pour : </th>
<td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:apps@ivoa.net">apps@ivoa.net</a></td>
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<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>We have to go forward on this.</p>
<p>I agree that #see-also covers nearly everything we can imagine
in the contexte of Datalink as was my initial proposal of
"#associated_data" in VEP001.</p>
<p>I think it's true that something like what Markus defined as
sharing the same "progenitor with #this" and that he called
#sibling is needed. <br>
</p>
<p>But )</p>
<p> - Due to the "non intuitive" terminology, I suggest a
synonymous : #co-generated. This is directly inspired by
Provenance dataModel, a new IVOA recommendation dated April the
11th this year. If you share a progenitor with somebody else,
this means you have been <b>generated </b>by the same <b>activity</b>
with this guy and that this activity <b>used </b>the same<b>
entity,</b> you progenitor.</p>
<p> - This doesn't cover everything we had in mind originally
with "associated data" in the sense of VizieR, sepcially when
#this is a source in a catalogue and not a dataset. Several
proposals have been made. Pat proposed "contains" and "followup"
and I Personnaly proposed ""Observation_Result_of_source" and
also "cross-correlated". none of these seemed to be generic
enough to satisfy everybody. But I do think we need some term
for linking something to #thing which is scientific data (that
is not a process, not a preview, not a calibration file, no
auxiliary data and not additional medata) and which is neither
progenitor nor derived and nor sibling/co-generated. <br>
</p>
<p> To illustrate this look at the VizieR example below.
this is a catalog of Spitzer galaxies with link to their optical
counterpart image: "Optical imaging for the Spitzer Survey of
Stellar Structure in Galaxies. Data release and notes on
interacting galaxies.". <br>
</p>
<p>As explained in the abstract (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://cdsarc.unistra.fr/viz-bin/cat/J/A%2bA/569/A91"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://cdsarc.unistra.fr/viz-bin/cat/J/A%2bA/569/A91</a>)
a link is provided to opticals images of various origins for all
galaxies extracted from Spitzer IR information. This kind of
relation between the Spitzer galaxy and its optical counterpart
image is not covered by sibling/co-generated, derived, or
progenitor. <br>
</p>
<p> I propose something like "#other" or "#alternate" ( the
latter was already proposed by Markus ..... in 2015 !!!
semantics session during interop In Sydney)</p>
<p> In addition i think #derived,#progenitor, #co-generated
(#sibling ? ) and #alternante (#other ?) should share the same
"head term" "#science".</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>François <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> <br>
</p>
<p><br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 23/03/2020 à 13:33, Markus
Demleitner a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:20200323123303.exoasmxu4whnxc7w@victor">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Dear Apps,
Over in DAL, we've tried define a new concept in the datalink
vocabulary -- see
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mail.ivoa.net/pipermail/dal/2020-February/008261.html" moz-do-not-send="true">http://mail.ivoa.net/pipermail/dal/2020-February/008261.html</a>.
The use case that started this is that the Gaia astrometry satellite
produces spectra and time series for a subset of the objects it
measures, and the idea is to use datalink to link the files to
catalogue rows using datalink.
The question essentially is: What is "the" relationship between the
astrometric record and the spectra (the quotes are there because
there are of course many such relationships, but we'd like to find
one that's at the same time characteristic and generalisable)?
And more importantly: What are other cases like that, and what would
applications like to see so they can display these extra links at the
right moment (and not display them when inappropriate)? That's why
I'm here: I'd be grateful for application writers' thoughts about our
(Semantics) problem.
The thread above somewhat petered out when considering two
alternatives:
#sibling -- essentially, this marks artefacts that came up from the
same basic measurement as #this; it nicely complements #progenitor
and #derivation that we already have in datalink/core. Against it it
has been argued that it's not very intuitive to people who don't
think in provenance terms too much. And that it perhaps is a concept
that's not very useful in practice (i.e., doesn't let clients do
things users would like them to do).
#see-also -- the idea is that it's "data people might be interested
in when looking at #this". The trouble is that once I try to have a
clear definition for what this actually means I fail. You see,
essentially all datalink terms would fall under #see-also, and I
couldn't find a good criterion to exclude them.
So, if we do something along the lines see-also, it would have to be
see-also-if-X, where X could be, perhaps, "scientifically exploiting
#this" or "you have found something interesting in #this and would
like to learn more about it" or whatever. I think you'll agree that
these proposals are... uncovincing.
After this, I'm essentially back to #sibling, which is well-defined
and (IMHO) easy to explain, which, as concepts go, is great. It's
also been useful *for publishing* in several other data collection,
such as when people did line maps for a spectral cube.
But is it useful *when consuming*, i.e., when doing user interfaces?
If you think it's not, what concept *would* be useful to you? Do you
perhaps have an idea how a see-also-if-X concept could usefully be
built?
Thanks,
Markus
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