<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Slava and all,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">`dataproduct_type` and `access_format` are indeed 2 different things. As you say, the MS "format" can carry different dataproduct_types, and so does FITS or VOTable. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">`access_format` is (should be) a MIME type (i.e., application/fits, application/x-cdf, application/x-votable+xml, …)</div><div class="">with a possible "qualifier" giving the dataproduct_type, as proposed in <a href="http://mail.ivoa.net/pipermail/dal/2019-December/008252.html" class="">http://mail.ivoa.net/pipermail/dal/2019-December/008252.html</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Baptiste</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Le 11 mars 2020 à 11:25, Slava Kitaeff <<a href="mailto:slava.kitaeff@uwa.edu.au" class="">slava.kitaeff@uwa.edu.au</a>> a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal">Hi James et all,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Just a quick note on that. It’s a bit of a guess but I’m suspecting that this might be referring to a Measurement Set (MS), which is a specific data format (and a model) used by CASA (and now ASKAPsoft) to store interferometric visibilities.
So, the data type is then must be “visibilities”. To confuse things further, CASA can store continuum images and spectral-line image-cubes in the same MS format as CASA tables. In my view, it’d be ideal to have two things describing a) the nature of data and
b) its specific format (including version).<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Slava<o:p class=""></o:p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">________________________________</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b class=""><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5DABCE" class="">Dr Slava Kitaeff</span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Australian SKA Regional Centre Program Manager</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">International Centre for Radio Astronomy Research</span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">The University of Western Australia</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Astronomy and Space Science</span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">CSIRO</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Email: </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:blue" class=""><a href="mailto:slava.kitaeff@icrar.org" class=""><span style="color:#0563C1" class="">slava.kitaeff@icrar.org</span></a> </span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">or <a href="mailto:slava.kitaeff@csiro.au" class=""><span style="color:#0563C1" class="">slava.kitaeff@csiro.au</span></a> </span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Tel.: (+61) (0) 8 6488 7744 (ICRAR) or (+61) (0) 8 6436 8865 (CSIRO)</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Mob.: +61 404 297 414</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><i class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></i><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Mailing addresses:</span></b><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; 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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><<a href="mailto:dal-bounces@ivoa.net" class="">dal-bounces@ivoa.net</a>> on behalf of "Dempsey, James (IM&T, Black Mountain)" <<a href="mailto:James.Dempsey@csiro.au" class="">James.Dempsey@csiro.au</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date: </b>Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 5:43 pm<br class="">
<b class="">To: </b>Markus Demleitner <<a href="mailto:msdemlei@ari.uni-heidelberg.de" class="">msdemlei@ari.uni-heidelberg.de</a>>, "<a href="mailto:dal@ivoa.net" class="">dal@ivoa.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:dal@ivoa.net" class="">dal@ivoa.net</a>>, "<a href="mailto:registry@ivoa.net" class="">registry@ivoa.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:registry@ivoa.net" class="">registry@ivoa.net</a>>, "<a href="mailto:semantics@ivoa.net" class="">semantics@ivoa.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:semantics@ivoa.net" class="">semantics@ivoa.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject: </b>Re: Vocabularising dataproduct_type<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">Hi Markus,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">We are dealing with a lot of catalogues as well as images, cubes etc. Currently these have a blank dataproduct_type in the CASDA obscore instance as there wasn't anything
we could use in v1.0. We will probably start using measurements soon as it is better than nothing, but it isn't a term that our community uses. Their expectation is to see catalogue in the type, so I'd be keen to see that as term available for use.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">Our catalogues are generally source lists produced from the associated image/cube.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">Cheers,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt" class="">James Dempsey<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;background:white" class="">Senior Developer</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;background:white" class="">Information Services Applications</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt" class="">CSIRO Information Management & Technology (IM&T)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b class=""><span style="" class="">From:</span></b><span style="" class=""> <a href="mailto:dal-bounces@ivoa.net" class="">dal-bounces@ivoa.net</a> <<a href="mailto:dal-bounces@ivoa.net" class="">dal-bounces@ivoa.net</a>> on behalf of Markus Demleitner <<a href="mailto:msdemlei@ari.uni-heidelberg.de" class="">msdemlei@ari.uni-heidelberg.de</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Wednesday, 11 March 2020 7:48 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> <a href="mailto:dal@ivoa.net" class="">dal@ivoa.net</a> <<a href="mailto:dal@ivoa.net" class="">dal@ivoa.net</a>>; <a href="mailto:registry@ivoa.net" class="">registry@ivoa.net</a> <<a href="mailto:registry@ivoa.net" class="">registry@ivoa.net</a>>; <a href="mailto:semantics@ivoa.net" class="">semantics@ivoa.net</a> <<a href="mailto:semantics@ivoa.net" class="">semantics@ivoa.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: Vocabularising dataproduct_type</span> <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Hi Sarah,<br class="">
<br class="">
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 03:58:09PM +0000, Sarah Weissman wrote:<br class="">
> * Would too many things be mapped into "Measurement" to be useful<br class="">
> from a discovery perspective?<br class="">
<br class="">
Given my findings yesterday (no active obscore service right now has<br class="">
measurements rows), I think we shouldn't sweat this measurements<br class="">
thing too much at this point -- in Registry, this term would only be<br class="">
used for (SSAP, for now) services *returning* lists of such<br class="">
measurements (as they would otherwise return spectra), which seems a<br class="">
long shot.<br class="">
<br class="">
Normal discovery of catalogues and similar will of course proceed as<br class="">
usual.<br class="">
<br class="">
However, I largely agree with Laurent:<br class="">
<br class="">
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:42:43 +0100, Laurent Michel wrote:<br class="">
> I would really prefer the list of dataproduct_type to ensur an ascending<br class="">
> compatibility with Obscore. I believe it is worth to keep as fas as possible a<br class="">
> consistance betwenn standards. This might help in many cases to map things<br class="">
<br class="">
So, even though I think we've found that the actual definition of<br class="">
measurement is, well, hard, I'm now rather convinced we shouldn't<br class="">
drop it. On the other hand, when we follow Marco --<br class="">
<br class="">
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:53:09 +0100, Molinaro, Marco wrote:<br class="">
> Il giorno mar 10 mar 2020 alle ore 13:14 Markus Demleitner <<br class="">
>> A set of derived measurements obtained from a particular original<br class="">
>> dataset. The prototypical example would be a list of sources<br class="">
>> extracted from an image.<br class="">
><br class="">
> Does it have to be "original dataset" _singular_?<br class="">
<br class="">
and Laurent's previous proposal, we'd end up with:<br class="">
<br class="">
A set of derived measurements obtained from original datasets or a<br class="">
catalog of sources.<br class="">
<br class="">
I'd say the "obtained from original datasets" in there doesn't really<br class="">
mean much (what else could the measurements be derived from?), so<br class="">
reduced it would work out to<br class="">
<br class="">
A set of derived measurements or a catalog of sources.<br class="">
<br class="">
Which, as Sarah rightly says, is really vague and all-encompassing.<br class="">
As I said, I'd normally throw out such a term on grounds of it<br class="">
colliding with too many other terms without really fitting well into<br class="">
a hierarchy.<br class="">
<br class="">
But again, since it's in obscore, we shouldn't drop it. But since<br class="">
it, to me, seems ill-defined, perhaps we should be frank and just say:<br class="">
<br class="">
Generic tabular data not fitting any of the other terms. Because<br class="">
of its lack of specificity, this term should generally be avoided,<br class="">
and new, more precise terms should be introduced instead.<br class="">
<br class="">
Can people live with that? If we find good use cases for<br class="">
"measurements" later, we still can get more precise in this<br class="">
definition as long as we now say "don't use it, really".<br class="">
<br class="">
Back to Sarah:<br class="">
<br class="">
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 03:58:09PM +0000, Sarah Weissman wrote:<br class="">
> * Do we need a separate category for "Model"?<br class="">
<br class="">
The future Vocabularies 2 standard is designed to make it easy to add<br class="">
new terms exactly when they're actually needed. So, when you you<br class="">
have an SSA or Obscore service returning such Models instances -- or<br class="">
some future use of this vocabulary needs it --, we can include it.<br class="">
For now, let's see if we can just stick with what Obscore already<br class="">
has.<br class="">
<br class="">
> * Do you expect that more than one label would be applied to a data<br class="">
> product? For example (naively) could a "spectral image cube" be<br class="">
> labeled with "spectrum" and "image" and "cube"?<br class="">
<br class="">
This depends on where the terms are being used. In obscore, only one<br class="">
label per row is possible, and I don't think that can be changed in a<br class="">
backwards-compatible way; we could, however, in some future version<br class="">
of obscore, introduce a multi-valued "other_dataproduct_types" in the<br class="">
style of EPN-TAP -- but that's a different discussion.<br class="">
<br class="">
In what I'm drafting for SimpleDALRegExt, SSA services can be<br class="">
annotated with zero or more dataproductType elements (current<br class="">
internal draft: <a href="http://docs.g-vo.org/SimpleDALRegExt.pdf" class="">http://docs.g-vo.org/SimpleDALRegExt.pdf</a> or on<br class="">
volute). More on this later on the Registry list.<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
<br class="">
Markus<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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