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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi all,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> I am confident that use cases have
been discussed since the time the CSP focused on discovery and
accees of radio data with VO satndards and proposed to create this
group. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> I think what is missing is the
appendix with these use cases expressed as ADQL queries</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> We started to write that and hope
to propose something before interop.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> In the mean time you may have a
look to a new version of the draft which integrated a lot of
improvments for single dish data. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/ivoa-std/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData/releases/download/auto-pdf-preview/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData-draft.pdf">https://github.com/ivoa-std/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData/releases/download/auto-pdf-preview/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData-draft.pdf</a></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> You can also find it here :
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData-draft_1.pdf">https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData-draft_1.pdf</a></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> Apart from the use case appendix
Points discussed in the last running meeting encompass :</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> fmin/fmax addition</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> dataproduct_types/instrument
types / scan modes</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> uv plane description</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> registration</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> extension and main table
relationship</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> links to auxiliary data
visualisation</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> ....</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Cheers</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">François<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 31/08/2023 à 12:23, Ada Nebot a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:59FB81B8-1FFB-4A1B-B3E5-AFD9196C2A55@astro.unistra.fr">
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Hi Alberto,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Your points are fair enough, and use cases should be
the starting point. I think that the document should state
clearly the use cases this extension tries to solve and how. At
the moment it refers to another VO document ("Radio
interferometry data in the VO”), which makes the reading a bit
more tedious. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I suggest the authors of the document summarise
those use cases upfront and add a section on how those uses
cases get answered by the proposed parameters of such a
secondary table that would accompany Obscore. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class="">Ada</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class="">
<div>Ada Nebot</div>
<div>-- </div>
<div>Astronome Adjointe</div>
<div>CDS, Observatoire Astronomique de Strasbourg (ObAS)</div>
<div>UMR 7550 Université de Strasbourg</div>
<div>11 Rue de l’Université, F-67000 Strasbourg</div>
<div>+33 (0) 3 68 85 24 40</div>
</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 29 Aug 2023, at 15:46, alberto micol <<a
href="mailto:amicol.ivoa@googlemail.com"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">amicol.ivoa@googlemail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">Dear All,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Sorry, I hope I sound more propositive
than patronising… I really believe in what I’m going
to say...</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">When we prepared ObsCore 1.0, we were
driven by a consolidated and approved list of
scientific use cases (*). Those use cases were
provided in form of ADQL-like queries that astronomers
wanted to perform to find data useful to their
scientific projects. Those queries are reported in the
ObsCore standard (Appendix A: Use Cases in detail).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">Such list of use cases helped us a lot
in cutting short discussions that otherwise would
have been much longer and tiring, and likely
ineffective.</div>
<div class="">Of the many parameters useful to
describe any given dataset, we were forced by the
collected list of use cases/database queries, to
restrict ourselves to the juice of things. So to
say, ObsCore is only the orange juice, it is not the
orange, nor the oranges. </div>
<div class="">The list of queries not only provided
the list of most important parameters needed, but
also made clear how those parameters were going to
be used, hence implicitly providing their
definition.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I cannot express strong enough how
fundamental it was to have those use cases at hand. </div>
<div class="">In my opinion, to be faithful to the
original and commended ObsCore’s approach, I think
that any extension to ObsCore </div>
<div class="">shall provide, first of all, a list of
use cases, expressed as ADQL-like queries, for the
specific type of data at hand, and not yet supported
by ObsCore.</div>
<div class="">(Some such use cases could even be found
within the mentioned Appendix, as we could not
accomodate in v1.0 all received use cases).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">While reading the twiki discussion page
and after having had a look at the current WD for
the extension to radio data, I failed to find any
reference to the queries such ObsCore extension
should permit. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Is it too late to ask, probably the
Standing Committee for Science Priorities, such list
of queries? </div>
<div class="">
<div class="">(Of course, unless such list already
exists, and I have miserably failed to find it, in
which case please accept my apologies)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="">I believe that by looking at the new use
cases, and comparing them with the existing ones, we
can come up with a powerful and versatile standard.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Without new use cases, I really do not
know how the questions posed in the discussion page
could effectively be answered, as I do not
understand what is really important, which
parameters are going to be used the most by the
community, which ones instead are only covering
niche cases, etc. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The ObsCore motto was: “good enough”, as
opposed to “describing all possible scenarios”, I
will not forget that lesson, which I hope is also
passed along to the new generation of VO developers.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My two cents,</div>
<div class="">Alberto</div>
<div class="">(*) The use cases were collected by the
Use Case Group of astronomers, appointed by the IVOA
Take-Up Committee (predecessor of the current
Standing Committee on Science Priorities), and led
by David Schade, whose role did not stop there as he
then organised and attended all the following
ObsCore Tiger Team meetings, motivating us all,
until publication of ObsCore v1.0, back in 2011.
[Reference: <a
href="https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/IvoaExecMeetingFM34/IVOATake-UpRept0909.doc"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Report of IVOA
Take-Up Committee</a>, IVOA Interop, Strasbourg
May 2009]</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 26 Jul 2023, at 15:39, BONNAREL
FRANCOIS <<a
href="mailto:francois.bonnarel@astro.unistra.fr"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">francois.bonnarel@astro.unistra.fr</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">Dear all,<br class="">
<br class="">
We plan to have a joint on line meeting in
one month in order to solve most of the
remaining issues for the ObsCore extension for
radio data specification<br class="">
<br class="">
A poll to choose date and time below.
Everybody in these lists is welcomed but must
of all the specification authors.<br class="">
<br class="">
<a
href="https://evento.renater.fr/survey/radio-ig-dm-wg-running-meeting-l6i1fdo0"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://evento.renater.fr/survey/radio-ig-dm-wg-running-meeting-l6i1fdo0</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
I remind you the links for the
specification WD :
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://ivoa.net/documents/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData/20230512/index.html">https://ivoa.net/documents/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData/20230512/index.html</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
the discussion page on the ivoa twiki :
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData">https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
or the github project :
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/ivoa-std/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData">https://github.com/ivoa-std/ObsCoreExtensionForRadioData</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
Cheers<br class="">
<br class="">
François Bonnarel (RIG Chair) with<br class="">
<br class="">
Mark Cresitello Dittmar (DMWG Chair)<br
class="">
<br class="">
Mark Kettenis (RIG vice-chair)<br class="">
<br class="">
Mathieu Servillat (DMWG vice-chair)<br
class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
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</blockquote>
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