<html aria-label="message body"><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Mireille,<div><br></div><div>I provided some comments/answers in-line below. Let me know if you need more information.</div><div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Aug 24, 2026, at 12:52, Mireille Louys via heig <heig@ivoa.net> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
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<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>Hi Janet , Hi HEIG members,</p><p>Here are my comments about the last version of the note from
August 03. <br>
I just want to mention that july-august is the summer leave period
for people working at the university, <br>
that is why I answer now. </p><p>I will try to put my remarks and suggestions in Github , but I
cannot put comments on the current version via the web interface
currently. </p><p>Here are my remarks: </p><p>I believe some features need to be improved before submission :</p><p><i><b>Terms for data products : </b></i><br>
we have used advanced data products and analysis data products to
express, I suppose new elaborated products that are more easy <br>
to the user to take a decision, in data selection or in data
interpretation. <br>
<br>
<i>I think we must provide a clear definition for them. </i><br>
I believe both terms are fuzzy: </p><p>Why "advanced"? with respect to today’s available data products?
What will it mean in 2 years ? <br>
Are some advanced products not used for science analysis?
dedicated to data selection only? <br></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>We use the term “advanced data products” throughout the document, simply because that is the term used in the existing ObsCore Recommendation. See for example, footnote 8 on page 11 of the latest draft. We don’t in general use the term “analysis data products” as the usage of the latter term imputes a calib_level value that may not apply. The one exception to this is in Table 2, where we reference a proposed vocabulary name (and even here we again note in a footnote that “advanced data products” is more appropriate). </div><div><br></div><div>However, the ONLY reason we use that term is because it is currently used in the existing ObsCore Recommendation, which is our basis for extension.</div><div><br></div><div>Personally I prefer to just use the term “data products” throughout and drop the qualifying term, since “advanced” or “enhanced” or “analysis” data products is a meaningless distinction in modern astrophysics. Historically, our instruments used to produce only images or spectra or light curves that were more-or-less direct representations of the flux distribution on the sky, but that is no longer the case. Today, in addition to those kinds of data products, we have instruments that produce additional types of data, for example direct measurements in Fourier space. We also are seeing cases where the output of on-board processing (i.e., whether directly in hardware or by software, on the instrument or telescope) is all the data that we get back. This has been the case for radio interferometry for some time for example, as the raw data volume from the antennas is far too large to propagate in many cases. But there are other examples where processed products such as power spectra are the only output data products from observations, since downlink bandwidth is often very limited. There are already proposals for space missions that use onboard agentic analyses to only provide what we might term “advanced data products” as the only downlinked data from the observatory.</div><div><br></div><div>A second reason for not trying to segregate data products using terms such as “advanced” or “enhanced” or “analysis” is that these divisions are artificial and will almost certainly be inappropriate after a few years, as you commented above.</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>
<br>
What are these data products intended for ? <br>
To understand better the content of a dataset, ease data analysis
or data selection or data processing ?<br>
Can we precise this goal better? <br></p></div></div></blockquote><div>The data product types that we proposed - draws, pdf, region, response - are sufficiently general that they can be be used for any of these steps (but that is also true of image, spectrum, light curve etc.). We deliberately tried to define these data product types generally, precisely because they can be used in many different ways (and in many cases are often used in all these different ways when selecting, processing, and analyzing data).</div><div><br></div><div>For example, a region data product can define a region of phase space that identifies data to be considered for further analysis (e.g., a spatial/spectral/temporal region in specified coordinate system). More commonly, a region may be a spatial region used to filter other data products such as an event list or an exposure map for further pipeline data processing or data analysis. However, a region data products can also for example represent a set of contours, such as surface brightness contours on the sky, in which case it may be used directly for data analysis or visualization.</div><div><br></div><div>Another example would be that one can use the psf response function to create a region that encapsulates a given psf fraction for further processing to create an aperture photometry pdf in the pipeline and correct for aperture losses. But that same psf response may be used together with other response functions to compute the mapping from physical space to detector space needed for forward fitting to interpret the observed spectrum. These tasks may be performed as part of a data processing pipeline or as part of data analysis.</div><div><br></div><div>The bottom line is these data products are relevant for all of these goals.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>
<br>
This question will need to be adressed for Obscore 1.2 , but for
this Note we can keep "advanced data products" <br>
with the caveat that clarification is needed. </p></div></div></blockquote><div>Shall we just drop the term altogether in the document and just call them all “data products”?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p><b><i>Labels :</i></b></p><p>#pdf<br>
evoques a Probability analysis result for some variable quantity
contained in the data.<br>
--> seems understandable <br>
#draws <br>
Analysis result after a MCMC computation for some variable in the
data like aperture photometry, astrometry, etc. <br>
Seems useful for characterising the observed dataset content, its
quality / interpretability. <br>
Q:Is it the result of interpretation of the observed data or a
side product to help or it? <br>
--> Can the definition be clarified ? <br></p></div></div></blockquote>I’m not sure where this text comes from. It’s not the (concise) definition of draws that is included in the document, and isn’t from the detailed text that I provided for the VEP. A draws dataset simply records statistical draws computed from a probability distribution or a sample population. For example, when one computes a statistical distribution using Bayesian analysis, Markov chain Monte Carlo is typically used to compute the marginal probability density function (MPDF) for the random variable of interest. The draws data product then records the individual draws from the sampler being used. The distribution of the samples should converge to the actual MPDF, but the run of the samples provides significant additional information regarding the convergence of the MCMC process (there are statistics such as R-hat that can be used to analyze the individual draws to determine how well the process converged). Thus while draws are more complex than a pdf to interpret, they can also provide information on how well the process converged. Depending on process, either a pdf or draws (or both) may be provided to the end user.</div><div><br></div><div>A couple of examples. For Chandra we provide a detection position on the sky and an elliptical position uncertainty with a given confidence level. We provide the 2-D position draws so the user can interpret the 2-D position uncertainty surface at their chosen confidence level, but the draws themselves also provide a direct assessment of how well the position draws converge to a single detection position (vs. perhaps there is a second otherwise undetected component; in a data processing pipeline we might use AIC or BIC to decide whether there is enough evidence for an additional component and then send the data back for a refit). We also compute aperture photometry probability density functions (for net counts, net count rate, photon flux, and energy flux) similarly, using MCMC draws and then providing to the end user the pdfs for each of aperture photometry measures (because they are more easily understood than the draws). However, some users prefer access to the draws so we will begin providing these data products also.</div><div><br></div><div>So the way we use draws is mainly as end-user data products. However, draws can be used to guide pipeline processing as well. For example, when evaluating the appropriate spectral model for forward fitting the spectral responses, one could evaluate the convergence of the draws from several model fits with different models to guide the model choice. Again, these products can be used in multiple ways.</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>
<br>
#region <br>
Used for Chandra.<br>
Does it apply to other projects? How is it called elsewhere? <br>
Is it a spatial ancillary dataproduct ?<br>
Spatial map ?
Multi-dimensional significance map?<br>
STMOC is a possible format for a multi-order map, but the geometry
of the regions <br>
are tiles and not circles or polygons as shown in the exemple
proposed for <br>
#region in the VEP currently submitted at<br>
<a href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://github.com/ivoa-std/VEPs/pull/21/changes/c4195e1975341881d8fda22cb851ff11b5b74c1f%23top&source=gmail-imap&ust=1788195143000000&usg=AOvVaw3TWqlWXdQL0rfyMIZJrVC8" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/ivoa-std/VEPs/pull/21/changes/c4195e1975341881d8fda22cb851ff11b5b74c1f#top</a><br></p></div></div></blockquote><div>As mentioned above, our definition of region (A dataset that encoded (one or more) regions of parameter space … The set of dimensions represented by the region can be arbitrary) allows these data products to be used in many different ways. Certainly the most common region data products in current use are 2-D spatial regions, and these spatial regions may be represented in many ways. One of the most common region formats in the US is the ds9 region format, which supports (e.g.) circle, ellipse, box, polygon, annulus, panda (this list isn't complete) shaped regions. The ones we use most are circles, ellipses, and polygons. This region format is used by XMM, Fermi, Chandra, and most NASA-funded astronomy missions, as well as most US optical astronomy facilities. Chandra also uses the standard FITS Spatial Region File Registered Convention, which is supported by CFITSIO and astropy, and is used by many high energy missions. I gave some examples of how regions may be used earlier in this email.</div><div><br></div><div>The main point about the region data product is that various region formats in common use and with data products in US ground- and space-based data archives use encodings that predate MOCs by decades and so we need to be able to reference existing data products. If you want to encode a region as an STMOC and record that as a data product, then it would be a region data product.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>
<br>
--> Seems useful for characterising the dataset quality /
interpretability.<br>
Q:Is it the result of observed data interpretation or a side
product to help or it? </p></div></div></blockquote><div>I’m not sure what this question refers to. I don’t think regions are typically used to characterize dataset quality or interpretability.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p><b><i>Appendix B : Response table </i></b><br>
In order to distinguish response files from observation files as
targeted in the ObsCore specification, we propose to distribute
response data products in a separate table in TAP and to use it
in a Join operation with the ivoa.obscore table that describes
the event-list .<br>
<br>
The type of response is defined in the column
\emph{resp_dataproduct_type} and follows the <i>response-type</i>
ivoa vocabulary. <br>
<br>
Each response is searchable by its dataproduct_type
(resp_dataproduct_type)<br>
and by some axes properties on position, energy, time for
selection . <br>
They correspond to the actual coverage of the response data set, <br>
which can differ slightly from the one of the original data set
(event-list) they can apply to. <br>
The response file may apply on selected events from the
event-list, based on event_type, <br>
source modeling , or energy constraints. <br>
Therefore the coverage in space, energy and time of a response
function may differ <br>
from the one computed on the primary event-list taken in the
observation. <br>
<br>
In the uses cases discussed in the note, responses are searched
based on the IDs for observation or event-list <br>
they are linked to in the archive, so by \emph{obs_id} or
\emph{obs_publisher_id} in the ObsCore table.
<br>
These can be used as foreign keys in the join operation between
the response table and the ivoa.obscore.
<br>
<br>
The results can be sorted by their <i>resp_data_product_type</i>
to discover #psf or #edisp or #arf, etc. <br>
So one response table only is needed . <br>
<br>
Introducing for instance <i>response_psf</i> or r<i>esponse_edisp</i>
tables whose metadata content can vary for each archive,<br>
just break interoperability. <br>
The response_table should contain the mandatory attributes defined
in the core response table defined Tab. 8, <br>
and if needed , can also contain optional columns for some
particular data providers and users. <br>
<br>
Those columns can’t be standardized. <br>
We have not explored use cases requiring any distinction between
response tables . <br>
<br>
In any case it is up to the user to finally check the response
file in details before using it for calibration. <br></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Are you proposing this (or something similar) to add at the beginning of Appendix B? If so, it looks pretty good. I might tweak the wording a little, since we really do need more detailed thought about what should be mandatory attributes. For example some responses simply don’t directly fit into a parameter space that is tied to ra/dec (they may instead be tied to telescope coordinates such as off-axis and azimuthal angles, or altitude and azimuth etc.). In many cases response functions will be associated one-to-one with their primary data products in ObsCore and can be served via DataLink from ObsCore.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>
<br>
</p><p>thanks for your reading, </p><p>Best , Mireille</p><p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 12/08/2026 à 11:08 PM, Janet Evans
via heig a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:8C5D1F3C-5FBD-4BAE-A64E-70D376D9F260@cfa.harvard.edu">
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<span style="font-family: ArialMT;">Dear HEIG,</span>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">Apologies for the long gap in
communication. Here is a summary of some of the things that
have happened since our last HEIG meeting.</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">o IVOA Interop in Strasbourg </div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Great meeting for HEIG with
interest in the Obscore extension, a plenary to present the HE
Obscore extension doc details and the demos prepared by this
group.</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">o Semantics meeting at Interop </div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Several of us met with the
Semantics WG to settle several vocabulary keywords - it was a
good meeting</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">o Further Obscore Note input
and final review/scrub</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>There is a new section 6 along
with a vocabulary update and scrub for typos/etc.</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">It’s now your turn to review
the document as we prepare to turn it over to the TCG/Exec for
Endorsed Note status. </div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">Here’s the schedule we’re
working to:</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span style="color: rgb(10, 10, 10); font-family: "Google Sans", "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Wed,
Aug 12 — Janet sends notice of final doc to HEIG for review
(typos/minor edits, no new content)</span></div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="color: rgb(10, 10, 10); font-family: "Google Sans", "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; white-space: pre;"> </span><font color="#0a0a0a" face="Google Sans, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif">Tue, Aug
25 — End of HEIG review/feedback</font></span></div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font color="#0a0a0a" face="Google Sans, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Thu,
Aug 27 — Janet sends note to TCG with request for
review/endorsed status </font></span></div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">The document is available in
GitHub (<a href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://github.com/ivoa/HighEnergyObsCoreExt?tab%3Dreadme-ov-file&source=gmail-imap&ust=1788195143000000&usg=AOvVaw03LWRfbluEMaxeFvSsGYPc" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/ivoa/HighEnergyObsCoreExt?tab=readme-ov-file</a>);
I’ve also appended the PDF below.</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">Best regards,</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">-janet</div>
<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
--
Mireille Louys, MCF (Assistant Professor)
Centre de données Astronomiques (CDS) Equipe Images, ICube
Observatoire de Strasbourg Telecom Physique Strasbourg
11, rue de l' Université 300, Bd Sebastien Brandt CS 10413
F-67000 Strasbourg F-67412 Illkirch Cedex</pre>
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-- <br>heig mailing list<br>heig@ivoa.net<br>https://www.google.com/url?q=http://mail.ivoa.net/mailman/listinfo/heig&source=gmail-imap&ust=1788195143000000&usg=AOvVaw3AQSTD5gVxK2DCUAdjouRn<br></div></blockquote><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>—Ian</div><br><div>
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