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<p>Dear HEIG , </p>
<p>Here is another set of remarks for the Usecase part : <br>
<i><b>UseCases.tex :</b></i><br>
<br>
<b>Uses-cases assumptions on vocabularies : </b><br>
We have proposed to distinguish 3 categories of datasets in this
note. <br>
Observation datasets, typically in HE : event-lists, and response
function datasets, and advanced datasets.<br>
<br>
In agreement with Semantics WG we have 3 vocabularies : <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type</a>
used for data products served in <i>ivoa.obscore</i> table <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ivoa.net/rdf/response-type"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.ivoa.net/rdf/response-type</a>
to expose response data products<br>
The draft for an advanced data product vocabulary is discussed
here: <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://github.com/ivoa-std/VEPs/pull/21/changes/c4195e1975341881d8fda22cb851ff11b5b74c1f#top"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/ivoa-std/VEPs/pull/21/changes/c4195e1975341881d8fda22cb851ff11b5b74c1f#top<br>
</a><br>
Note that the Radio astronomical community also requires the
definition of new dataproduct types for their science ready
datasets as « advanced dataset ». <br>
See <a
href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213133725000769"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213133725000769</a><br>
<br>
The note naturally insists to distinguish between the kinds of
datasets, <br>
due to their role in the science interpretation process. <br>
But to serve all these datasets by an ObsTAP service we need to
define <br>
an implementation strategy compatible to all HEIG projects and
stable for future data archives. <br>
<br>
Currently the Uses-case Appendix A shows 3 strategies: <br>
<br>
</p>
<ul>
<li><b>Assumption 1</b>: <i>dataproduct_type</i> in <i>ivoa.obscore</i>
belongs to any of the 3 vocabularies product-type, <br>
advanced_data_products, response data products: </li>
</ul>
<p>All products are distributed with the <i>ivoa.obscore</i> table
. <br>
Chandra A.1.8, A.2.1,A.2.3, A2.4 , CTAO: A1.9, SWGO: A1.3<br>
Pb: If you search event-list or light-curves in a region, with
response functions,<br>
you get all datasets together and need to sort which psf matches
which light curve for instance.
<br>
You can use GROUP by obs_id for instance, but still there may be
several light curves involved in the region, <br>
so how to match light_curves and psf files properly if the psf
varies in the field of view? <br>
<br>
</p>
<ul>
<li><b>Assumption 2</b>: <i>data_product_subtype</i> in <i>ivoa.obscore</i>
provides the type of response function<br>
and "response-function" is added to product_type vocabulary. </li>
</ul>
<p>All products are distributed with the ivoa.obscore table .<br>
Km3net A1.10, A1.13<br>
Chandra <br>
Pb: dataproduct_subtype is not standard in ObsCore and left open
for archives’ specific needs . <br>
No distinctions between response and maps ( excess maps ,
significance maps, etc) <br>
also proposed in the dataproduct_subtype category. </p>
<ul>
<li><b>Assumption 3</b>: separate the 3 kinds of products and
implement one table for each kind <br>
<br>
<i>ivoa.obscore</i> uses data product_type in product-type
vocabulary<br>
<i>ivoa.response </i>uses data product_type in response-type
vocabulary<br>
<i>ivoa.adp</i> uses data product_type in
advanced-dataproduct-type vocabulary</li>
</ul>
<p>The ObsCore data model shows the links between the various
dataset categories. <br>
See Fig class-diagram-ObscoreExtensiondesign_for HE_interop2025v1
presented in Görlitz in <br>
EN-ObscoreExtensiondesign_for_HE_interop2025v1.pdf <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/InterOpNov2025DM/ObscoreExtensiondesignForHE-interop2025-Louys.pdf">here</a> <br>
<br>
Data discovery can then query each table separately, or join them
to discover the links between these 3 types of products. <br>
Here is an example: <br>
"Provide me all advanced datasets, light curves and spectra for
one region in the sky." <br>
<br>
<font face="Courier New, Courier, monospace">Select
obs_publisher_did, dataproduct_type, adp_publisher_did,
adp_product_type <br>
FROM ivoa.obscore as c<br>
JOIN ivoa.obscore-adp as adp <br>
ON adp.obs_publisher_id = c.obs_publisher_id <br>
WHERE c.dataproduct_type LIKE ‘%light-curve%’ <br>
OR c.dataproduct_type LIKE ‘%spectrum%’ <br>
AND (position constraint) </font><br>
<br>
</p>
<p><b>Loose criteria in queries </b><br>
Select * is used on all uses cases and may deliver a very wide
table <br>
with empty values in many columns or redundancy between a
response <br>
taken as an ObsCore record and the related observation.<br>
It is recommended in ObsTAP to keep the parameter list short like
in the example above, <br>
and to use the result table for a finer query afterwards.<br>
<br>
<b>Relationship between response functions and the
ivoa.obscore-hea table</b><br>
<br>
Many of our use cases show systematic JOIN between <i>ivoa.obscore</i>
and <i>ivoa.obscore-hea</i> <br>
tables when searching for response function.
This may lead to
ambiguities as for instance, I suppose ev_xel is a property for an
event-list but not for a psf or edisp response function.
Is this
right ? <br>
Any example of the interest of joining response and
ivoa.obscore-hea, to provide another use-case?<br>
<br>
More exploration is probably needed to set up working examples for
these uses cases.</p>
<p>I plan to have a pull request ready on our github by wednesday,
with some proposal to update the text. </p>
<p>Thanks, Mireille<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 12/08/2026 à 11:08 PM, Janet Evans
via heig a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8C5D1F3C-5FBD-4BAE-A64E-70D376D9F260@cfa.harvard.edu">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<span style="font-family: ArialMT;">Dear HEIG,</span>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">Apologies for the long gap in
communication. Here is a summary of some of the things that
have happened since our last HEIG meeting.</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">o IVOA Interop in Strasbourg </div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span class="Apple-tab-span"
style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Great meeting for HEIG with
interest in the Obscore extension, a plenary to present the HE
Obscore extension doc details and the demos prepared by this
group.</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">o Semantics meeting at Interop </div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span class="Apple-tab-span"
style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Several of us met with the
Semantics WG to settle several vocabulary keywords - it was a
good meeting</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">o Further Obscore Note input
and final review/scrub</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span class="Apple-tab-span"
style="white-space: pre;"> </span>There is a new section 6 along
with a vocabulary update and scrub for typos/etc.</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">It’s now your turn to review
the document as we prepare to turn it over to the TCG/Exec for
Endorsed Note status. </div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">Here’s the schedule we’re
working to:</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span
style="color: rgb(10, 10, 10); font-family: "Google Sans", "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Wed,
Aug 12 — Janet sends notice of final doc to HEIG for review
(typos/minor edits, no new content)</span></div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span
style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
class="Apple-tab-span"
style="color: rgb(10, 10, 10); font-family: "Google Sans", "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; white-space: pre;"> </span><font
color="#0a0a0a"
face="Google Sans, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif">Tue, Aug
25 — End of HEIG review/feedback</font></span></div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><span
style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font
color="#0a0a0a"
face="Google Sans, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif"><span
class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Thu,
Aug 27 — Janet sends note to TCG with request for
review/endorsed status </font></span></div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">The document is available in
GitHub (<a
href="https://github.com/ivoa/HighEnergyObsCoreExt?tab=readme-ov-file"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/ivoa/HighEnergyObsCoreExt?tab=readme-ov-file</a>);
I’ve also appended the PDF below.</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">Best regards,</div>
<div style="font-family: ArialMT;">-janet</div>
<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
--
Mireille Louys, MCF (Assistant Professor)
Centre de données Astronomiques (CDS) Equipe Images, ICube
Observatoire de Strasbourg Telecom Physique Strasbourg
11, rue de l' Université 300, Bd Sebastien Brandt CS 10413
F-67000 Strasbourg F-67412 Illkirch Cedex</pre>
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