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<p>Hi Tess, Ian, all</p>
<p>Sorry for the long delay<br>
</p>
<p>After reading Tess email late in March I took the time to look at
Heasarc TAP service and I will comment below. Let's first discuss
one <br>
</p>
<p>point in Ian's answer.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode">
<p> </p>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode">Hi Tess,<br>
<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think whether end users want to search for specific
datasets vary depending on the data collection and types of
data, and the number of and size of data products in the
collection.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If the data collection consists solely of individual
observations processed through standard data processing
pipelines and that need further user data analysis that
require the set of associated data products to extract
science then I agree that the ability to search for the
individual observation event list (or perhaps event bundle)
with associated data products accessible using datalink is
likely sufficient.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If the data collection contains advanced data products
(for example the Chandra Source Catalog data products) the
usage patterns change. Our experience is that users doing
catalog science typically identify potential sources of
interest and then want to retrieve subsets of data products
for those sources, often in several rounds. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example, they may identify hundreds, thousands, or in
some cases tens of thousands of candidate sources matching
their search criteria, and may subsequently download (e.g.)
the light curves for all of the observations of these
sources (on average 3 times as many as number of sources),
do some automated pre-filtering on the light curves, and
then download (e.g.) the cutout event lists surrounding the
individual observation detections for further analysis.
They might subsequently come back to download the region
definitions, and perhaps the individual observation PHA
spectra of the detections.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
But if the main discovery path is to start from sources then I
realize that the first approach would be a SimpleConeSearch or a
TAP query on the catalog seen as a table with parameters estimated
for this source. You already have this in Vizier and in your
chandra archive (see below within Aladin)
<p></p>
<p>The SCS interface to this catalog in VizieR is the following
(with randomly chosen RA, DEC, SR):
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://vizier.cds.unistra.fr/viz-bin/conesearch/IX/70/csc21Mas?RA=00.6405&DEC=-08.2216&SR=5.0">https://vizier.cds.unistra.fr/viz-bin/conesearch/IX/70/csc21Mas?RA=00.6405&DEC=-08.2216&SR=5.0</a></p>
<p>The result is a VOTable where a DataLink service descriptor
could be added in order to point to all related event list,
response functions and analysis data products. <br>
</p>
<p>This DataLink usage with Source catalogs (instead of
ObsTAP/SIA.SSA context) is an extension introduced with version
1.1 and is perfectly adapted to use cases where <br>
</p>
<p>you don't know the number and type and content of the
additional items you want to attach to the primary resource
(here the source record in the table)</p>
<p>This is how light curves are related to sources in corot for
example : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://vizier.cds.unistra.fr/viz-bin/conesearch/B/corot/Faint_star?RA=100.94235&DEC=-00.89651&SR=1">https://vizier.cds.unistra.fr/viz-bin/conesearch/B/corot/Faint_star?RA=100.94235&DEC=-00.89651&SR=1</a></p>
<p>You can load this URL in TOPCAT and invoke the service and will
discover the different light curves associated with each source<br>
</p>
<p>Now, as for Heasarc TAP service, it's very similar in the sense
that they often have a DataLink service descriptor in the
catalogue response and not in ObsTAP see for example the CALET
GamaRay Burst master catalog :
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/xamin/vo/tap/sync?REQUEST=doQuery&LANG=ADQL&MAXREC=20000000&QUERY=SELECT+TOP+9999+*+FROM+calgbmmstr+">https://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/xamin/vo/tap/sync?REQUEST=doQuery&LANG=ADQL&MAXREC=20000000&QUERY=SELECT+TOP+9999+*+FROM+calgbmmstr+</a></p>
<p>We can look at this VOTable with help of TOPCAT as you can see
below in the second screenshot. There are plenty of links
attached to each row in the first table, including the #this
one. <br>
</p>
<p>The others are all auxiliary. I would only suggest to detail
the various flavors of auxiliary in the local semantics field
instead of semantics in order to improve interoperability,
because #auxiliary only belongs to the standard vocabulary.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is a very different usage pattern where end users
are retrieving particular data products for potentially a
large number of objects, and subsequently refining the list
and downloading additional data products, sometimes in
multiple steps. One reason for this approach is scale. For
example, there are roughly 100x the number of data products,
and 10x the data volume, for the Chandra Source Catalog vs.
the Chandra data archive data products for the set of
processed science observations.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Could this be done by requiring end users to search for
observations and then using datalink to access the
individual data products? Probably not, because many of our
data products merge data from multiple observations and it
would be very difficult to encode the necessary source —
stack detection — observation detection linkages correctly.
In any case, doing queries like this en masse and then
having to select subsets of datalinks is going to be much
more difficult than a simple ObsCore query that directly
returns the records (and access_urls) that you are looking
for.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
If the issue there is to be required to pass through a two step
process, then the TAP interface to the DataLink table would allow
to avoid that by joining thecatalog table to the DataLink table on
the source id. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode">Best regards</div>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode">François<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With regard to your specific question regarding RMFs. I
don’t know that users will download RMFs without either
concurrently or previously downloading the PHA.
Occasionally users will search for RMFs (and ARFs)
separately from PHA spectra because they have previously
retrieved the latter. On the other hand, we do for example
see end users downloading PSFs independently from the
primary datasets. This is likely because the catalog
includes a vast set of high quality PSFs (of order 10M)
covering the entire Chandra field of view and PSFs are
rather expensive to generate.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have specifically tried very hard to focus on data
discovery in the proposed ObsCore extensions note, and have
used actual experience - how do we see our users wanting to
work - to help guide our proposals.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>—Ian</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Mar 20, 2026, at 11:26, Jaffe, Tess (GSFC-6601)
via heig <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:heig@ivoa.net"><heig@ivoa.net></a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">Hi everybody,</span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">I agree with
Francois on a number of things, but especially
that there is a lot of misunderstanding and
misrepresentation going on here. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Nobody</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>has ever
expressed reluctance to ensure that HEA-specific
ancillary products such as responses etc. are made
available easily through VO protocols. Let’s
focus on what the issue actually is, because I
think the discussion has lost sight of it.</span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">In my opinion,
the main issue is not whether things like response
matrices are science data, are needed by the
users, or should be in the VO. I think we all
agree that this is obvious. The question is what
is the best method for making them accessible<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>in the
needed context</i><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> and how
far we need to customize what goes in the ObsCore
table itself for different fields. That then is a
question about discoverability and complexity. </span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">Having an
individual row in an ObsCore table enables a user
to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>search
for</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>that
one specific thing. The best practice
recommendation for the use of ObsCore is that the
access_url be a datalink. So for a given product
listed in an ObsCore table, three queries are
needed: one to find the product, one to get its
datalinks, and then one to download the file(s).
I cannot recall having heard of a use case where
somebody was interested in finding only the RMFs
from a given instrument in a given year. (Please
let me know if you have a use case for this so
that we can address it directly. I can think of
calibration projects, but this is an edge case
that can be addressed another way.) Users will
instead want to find all of the spectra from some
source/time/waveband. That is why ObsCore has a
row for such a product. Nobody disputes that to
do the scientific analysis on that spectrum
requires the user to also have an RMF. But that
RMF does not need to be independently
discoverable, just correctly linked to the
spectrum that is of interest. </span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">Francois has
proposed a number of solutions to this. ObsCore
has a very reasonable amount of flexibility and
specificity, and it is quite important to worry
about adding unnecessary complexity and size. (I
myself was worried about the additional complexity
of the datalink layer, but now in implementation,
I’m becoming a fan.) The radio extension doc you
may note proposes a number of fields that are<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>all
about discovery</i>. It then states, “Auxiliary
datasets such as uv distribution map, dirty beam
maps, frequency/amplitude plots, phase/amplitude
plots are useful for astronomers to check data
quality. In that case DataLink … may provide a
solution to attach these auxiliary data to ObsCore
records.” That makes sense to me. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">So I suggest we
follow what the radio folks are doing. With this
in mind, I think that three of the proposed
columns -- T_intervals , Obs_mode , Event_type –
are very clearly applicable to data discovery and
should be added to the ObsCore table. But some
of the other proposed fields would be better added
in datalinks with a HEA-specific vocabulary. We
should discuss these on a case-by-case basis after
having agreed on the purpose of a row in ObsCore. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;">I hope this
helps the discussion move along productively.</span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-line: none; text-decoration-thickness: auto; text-decoration-style: solid;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><br>
Tess</span></div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap=""><div class="moz-txt-sig">--
heig mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:heig@ivoa.net">heig@ivoa.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://mail.ivoa.net/mailman/listinfo/heig">http://mail.ivoa.net/mailman/listinfo/heig</a>
</div></pre>
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