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<p><font color="#6699ff">Dear Ian,</font></p>
<p><font color="#6699ff">Sorry but I think there is a
misunderstanding of my intentions in this discussion. I will
start by answering your conclusion before replying to some
details</font></p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote type="cite">Sorry, but we need to to take full
advantage of the flexibility provided by the ObsCore
Recommendation as written to serve our science users our science
data, based on our familiarity with how our science users want
to access and use those data. If the IVOA is unwilling to
support the needs of high-energy astrophysics, or at least of
this very large HEA data provider, then I want to hear that
stated directly and clearly by the IVOA Exec.</blockquote>
<font color="#ef2929">T</font><font color="#6699ff">wo things : </font>
<p><font color="#6699ff">First : I never, never claimed that data
which are important for your group, for Chandra to expose
should not be exposed in the VO. I thought I was clear on that
several times. I only challenge the idea that ObsCore is the
right way for everything. And<u> I proposed </u>several other
solutions fully VO consistent to do that (two DataLink
solutions, multiple tables with joins) in my post 4 weeks ago
on PR #35 (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://github.com/ivoa/HighEnergyObsCoreExt/pull/35">https://github.com/ivoa/HighEnergyObsCoreExt/pull/35</a>).
It would be good to have you opinion about those.<br>
</font> </p>
<p><font color="#6699ff">Second : I am interested in this project
and insist to give some advice because I think my experience
in building several VO protocols can be useful, as well as my
knowledge of the way several major data providers such as
CADC, GAVO, VizieR and others implemented them and I hope the
exec will not consider I am doing any harm in discussing the
best way to expose data. <br>
</font> </p>
<p><font color="#6699ff"><br>
</font> </p>
<font color="#6699ff">A few more details below </font></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 02/03/2026 à 23:01, Dr. Ian N. Evans
a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:059EF3F1-1375-4D73-9063-291D5A0000BA@cfa.harvard.edu">
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Dear Francois,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You are of course entitled to your opinion. However, what
you are arguing is in my view inconsistent with the wording of
the ObsCore Recommendation, Version 1.1.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As stated in section “1. Introduction”, of the Recommendation
“... The ability to pose a single scientific query to multiple
archives simultaneously is a fundamental use case for the
Virtual Observatory. Providing a simple standard protocol such
as the one described in this document increases the chances that
a majority of the data providers in astronomy will be able to
implement the protocol, thus allowing data discovery for almost
all archived astronomical observations.” That is exactly what
we are proposing here, with the scientific data products
required for high-energy astrophysics.</div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#6699ff">---> I think many of the products you store
in your archive (as presented in the document) are fundamentally
not so far from "flat fields", "dark images" "psf" in optical
astronomy, not to speak about various auxiliary data in radio
interferometry. I don't know any of the main services exposing
such response functions in the same service than the main sky
data. However most of them provide ways to retrieve such
response functions or auxiliary data from fundamental sky data.
Even The HESS prototype is not exposing response functions as
independent products in ObsCore. Why Would Chandra be so
different that you need to use the ivoa.ObsCore table to expose
them instead of other related tables ? </font>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:059EF3F1-1375-4D73-9063-291D5A0000BA@cfa.harvard.edu">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Further, under section “2. Use cases”, the Recommendation
states “Support any type of science data products (image, cube,
spectrum, time series, instrumental data, etc.).” All of our
data products satisfy this definition (and in fact instrument
responses are a perfect example of “instrumental data”).</div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#6699ff">--> Our understanding of "instrumental
data" was sky data at a very raw level. And again there is
absolutely no practice in the VO to expose response functions in
ObsCore</font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:059EF3F1-1375-4D73-9063-291D5A0000BA@cfa.harvard.edu">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But you say “By science data we mean data where we can detect
some information of interest coming from the sky.” Sorry, but
YOU don’t get to tell US what constitutes OUR “science data”.
Section “3.3.3. Observation and Observation Dataset” of the
Recommendation states “exactly what comprises an “observation”
is not well defined within astronomy and is left up to the data
provider to define for their data.” for a reason. Science data
products vary dramatically from waveband to waveband, and even
within a waveband from instrument to instrument depending on the
physical mechanism used by the detector. We consider instrument
responses to be “science data” and very much part of the
“observation dataset”.</div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#6699ff">---> Ok if you don't agree with my
definition of science data which was based on what I have seen in
ObsTAP services so far, let's talk about "sky data" instead. Again
I am not arrogant enough to force you to expose or not such and
such data, but I think I can give advice on where to put them
according to experience that all the services have followed so
far. What they have done is consistent with the sentence in the
same section 3.3.3 which reads "ObsTAP only directly supports the
description of science data products, i.e., data products which
contain science data having some physical (spatial, spectral,
temporal) coverage." </font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:059EF3F1-1375-4D73-9063-291D5A0000BA@cfa.harvard.edu">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Further down, section 3.3.3. Observation and Observation
Dataset” of the Recommendation states “Two different approaches
can be followed for exposing the instrumental data from an
observation. One can either expose the individual science data
products resulting from the observation, all sharing the
same obs_id, or one can “package” the data products and expose
the package as a single complex instrumental data product. ...
Which approach is best depends upon the anticipated scientific
usage and is up to the data provider to determine.” Again this
is sensibly up to the data provider because the data provider is
the one with the understanding of how the provider’s science
users access and use their data.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div><font color="#6699ff">---> the same section reads
immediately after "If the data products comprising an
observation are exposed individually then attributes such<br>
as the calibration level can vary for different data products,
e.g., the raw instrumental data as observed might be level 1, a
standard pipeline data product might be level 2, and a custom
user-processed data product subsequently published back to the
archive might be level 3. All such data products would share the
same obs_id." Clearly this sentence highlighted the intention
that we were building a protocol to expose "sky data" at
whatever calibration level and not for response functions.
Because I don't understand how we can define a calibration level
for a response function !<br>
</font> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:059EF3F1-1375-4D73-9063-291D5A0000BA@cfa.harvard.edu">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You further posit that “If we don't do this and extend the
domain of ObsCore too much we force it to become something else
and to loose universality.” On what basis do you make that
assumption? Certainly for Chandra data for example, our
instrument responses all map to a specific spatial, spectral,
and temporal coverage region on the sky. The use cases in
Appendix A of the HEA ObsCore Extension almost all comprise
queries that are based on sky geometry, spectral, or temporal
coverage, with a few others based on obs_id.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div><font color="#6699ff">---> I think there are two situations
: </font></div>
<div><font color="#6699ff"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#6699ff"> - either response
function are estimated by exposing the instrument to
experimental flux in order to provide a generic response
function valid for a set of observations (like we can do for a
dark or a flat or a spectral response). In that case the
"obscore characterisation" of this response function considered
as a dataproduct in ivoa.obscore table would simply be borrowed
from the sky data we would relate to this response function.
So mapping those to a specific spatial, spectral, and temporal
coverage region on the sky is wrong because the actual
characterisation of the response dataset in its own domain is
probably very different. Appendix A examples don't go against
this interpretation of how the obscore parameters are filled.
This is why I think we are losing universality in doing this.
This would be a very divergent</font><font color="#6699ff"> way
of interpreting the ObsCore characterisation parameters.<br>
</font> </div>
<div><font color="#6699ff"> - or response function
are directly estimated from the sky data themselves via an
analysis (I guess this is how psf are generally obtained by
estimating the profile of a point source in the data). Then the
response is actually part of the description of the sky data.
It's level 4 characterisation ( 1 -> location, 2 ->
bounds, 3 -> support, 4 -> functional response) It's not a
different product. </font></div>
<div><font color="#6699ff">But the ivoa.obscore table doesn't
provide level 4 characterisation. If desired it has to be
provided by a link. <br>
</font> </div>
<div><font color="#6699ff"> In both cases the binding </font><font
color="#6699ff">to all response or auxiliary functions can be
done with the main sky dataset either by Classical DataLink or
by joining two different tables (ivoa.obscore with any kind of
description/access table for response function) as I have
explained in my post in PR #35 (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://github.com/ivoa/HighEnergyObsCoreExt/pull/35">https://github.com/ivoa/HighEnergyObsCoreExt/pull/35</a>)</font></div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:059EF3F1-1375-4D73-9063-291D5A0000BA@cfa.harvard.edu">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You commented “When we designed ObsCore the intention was to
design a data model and an associated tap table to expose
science data.”, and that is great. However, I doubt very much
that the design team included representation from the full range
of wavebands or complete representation of different types of
experiments, facilities, or missions, and as a result the inputs
that went into building the standard (for example, what
constitutes “science data”) would have been incomplete. You did
an amazing job given the inputs that you had! But standards
evolve with time as they become more complete, or they wither
and die. ObsCore is currently evolving based on needs from
radio, timing, and high-energy astrophysics, and this should be
celebrated because it means that the standard is not withering
and dying.</div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#ff0000"> </font><font color="#6699ff">---> The
radio extension was a way to provide a better description of
radio sky data themselves, not to add calibration data, this is
already a great evolution and the additional parameters in the
HeIG extension follow the same philosophy. That's already a great
change. And for root ObsCore itself the characterisation
datamodel which is at the basis of it and the Obscore
specification itself were co-authored with people from almost all
domains including High Energy. The HESS prototype doesn't provide
access to response function apart from the event list via the
event-bundle product type. So I don't think High energy use
cases were totally ignored in this work. </font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:059EF3F1-1375-4D73-9063-291D5A0000BA@cfa.harvard.edu">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sorry, but we need to to take full advantage of the
flexibility provided by the ObsCore Recommendation as written to
serve our science users our science data, based on our
familiarity with how our science users want to access and use
those data. If the IVOA is unwilling to support the needs of
high-energy astrophysics, or at least of this very large HEA
data provider, then I want to hear that stated directly and
clearly by the IVOA Exec.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div><font color="#6699ff">---<font size="2">> </font> My final
question to you : "what is so wrong with combining ObsCore and
other adapted VO Technics to expose all kind of data with more
flexibility". </font></div>
<div><font color="#6699ff"><br>
</font> </div>
<p><font color="#6699ff">I am ready to write a section highlighting
how this combination can be done.</font></p>
<p><font color="#6699ff">Best regards</font></p>
<p><font color="#6699ff">François<br>
</font></p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:059EF3F1-1375-4D73-9063-291D5A0000BA@cfa.harvard.edu">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>—Ian</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Feb 24, 2026, at 08:43, BONNAREL FRANCOIS gmail via
heig <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:heig@ivoa.net"><heig@ivoa.net></a> wrote:</div>
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<div class="moz-forward-container">Dear Bruno, dear Ian,
all<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">We come back to this.
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">There is no doubt for
us that VO should provide ways to expose such things
as "background images" or in your case, Bruno,
background rate.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">Our concern is about
forcing ObsCore to be this way to expose such
datasets. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">When we designed
ObsCore the intention was to design a data model and
an associated tap table to expose science data. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">By science data we
mean data where we can detect some information of
interest coming from the sky. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">If we don't do this
and extend the domain of ObsCore too much we force it
to become something else and to loose universality. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">So according to this
general definition we don't think response function
belong to the ObsCore domain. Advanced data products
are another issue we won't discuss them today.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">Of course there are
plenty of ways to expose those data and relate them
with science data. VO must for sure improve their
description and access modes</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">DataLink is the
minimal method to make response data accessible and
relate them to relevant science data but may present
the drawback to be a "two steps" process. If direct
access to response data is required in a one step
process we suggest to explore the solution of defining
the DataLink response table as a TAP table in order to
allow JOINS with the ObsCore science data table. </div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">But it is true that
the description provided by DataLink is rather poor. </div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">So, alternativeky,
when needed, different tables may be defined to
describe response function datasets and provide
pointers to them if necessary.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"> A table with ucd on
most of the columns (existing ucds or new ones to
define) would already provide a lot of
interoperability between services providing response
data.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"> Moreover,
defining "response function data models" may provide
more flexible and accurate descriptions and acces
methods. Datamodels may be embedded in VOTables and
mapped to columns using utypes or Mango+Mivot.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"> We think some
sections of the HeiG note should be revised in these
directions.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"> We are ready to
help to do that. </div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"> </div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">François with
Mireille<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 07/02/2026 à 19:15, Bruno
Khelifi via heig a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:46124110-cc41-477d-b903-5fc4b762e6e7@apc.in2p3.fr">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>About "Background images and pixel masks are not
response-function data products", maybe this is the
case for X-rays. I won't discuss it.</p>
<p>As reminder, the term `background` is very generic
and can be used for everything. In gamma-ray
astronomy, it is from cosmic rays (it is not broken
pixels, that are handled much more earlier during the
raw data processing). In the GeV, TeV, PeV, the
background rate is without any doubt an IRF!<br>
In contrary to X-rays, 3D analysis are routinely made.
For that the counts are compared with the predicted
counts, that is the sum of the ones associated to
gamma rays and the ones associated to the background
rate, that are badly classified events as gamma-rays
(see our notes). The estimation of the background rate
can not be done on the data, because they are gamma
rays everywhere in the field of view for the galactic
plane (ie one can not use 'OFF' regions). As reminder,
the Fermi bubble or eRosita bubble are going very up
in latitudes. Also, one can not use simulations of
cosmic rays to estimate the background, because the
resources would be much too high and also because the
simulations badly reproduce the reality (many studies
made since decades show that). We use a complex
pipeline that takes in input data, creates some
exclusion masks iteratively in 3D, generates templates
of rate in an hypercube ( [X,Y] or theta, atmospheric
quality observable, optical efficiency of our
instruments, Zenith angles, azimuth angles between of
the geomagnetic effect on the extensive air showers,
and reconstructed energy), curates the data to handle
empty bins and low statistics bin, interpolates this
hypercube template to compute the observation-wise
background rate.</p>
<p>For the neutrino telescopes, real data are also used.
A specific pipeline is of use also to compute the
background rate.</p>
<p>So, one should keep without any doubt the background
rate as data product!</p>
<p>Best,<br>
Bruno</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 04/02/2026 à 20:38, Dr.
Ian N. Evans via heig a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D87B478A-C4D8-4BCC-9A47-5F193B34747C@cfa.harvard.edu">
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Dear Francois,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I consider the arf, rmf, and psf to be
response-function data products. Background images
and pixel masks are not response-function data
products - they are determined directly from the
observation event list similarly to a total counts
image. Bad pixel is a region data product, but it’s
something of a gray area since it’s a combination of
known bad pixel regions plus bad pixel regions
derived directly from the observation event list.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the Chandra Source Catalog (CSC) prototype,
at least initially we plan to expose all of the data
products directly to demonstrate that the extension
provides the flexibility that we need. However in
production, we likely would not expose all of the
data products individually but rather combine some
of them with the event lists as event bundles (at
least for the individual observation full-field data
product set). We would want to expose the
individual observation event lists individually, but
might choose for example to construct an event
bundle that exposes (at least) the event list, bad
pixel regions, aspect histogram, and possible aspect
solution as a bundle since there is very little use
for the latter 3 types of data product without the
event list.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While tying associated and derived data products
to an event list in an event bundle seems sensible
for individual observations, our experience is that
this isn’t appropriate for the CSC advanced data
products. Since CSC 2.0 was released we have had
millions of catalog data product downloads and
surveyed our user base as to data product usage.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The typical usage patterns for the CSC advanced
data products are different from the typical usage
patterns for individual X-ray observation data.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the latter the user typically downloads the
event list and ancillary data products (such as
responses or other data products that can be used to
build responses) as a set, and then performs data
analysis steps directly on the event list using the
ancillary data products, often after applying
spatial/spectral/temporal filters to the data.
Event bundles facilitate this usage.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the CSC advanced data products the usage
patterns are quite different. Many (most) of these
advanced data products are derived from multiple (in
some cases hundreds) observations. Typically the
users aren’t interested in performing data analysis
steps on the event lists themselves, and often
aren’t interested in knowing which observation(s)
they are derived from (at least not from the
perspective of having to perform a data query).
They just want (e.g.) all the spectra (or light
curves, or photometry MPDFs, or ...) in a certain
region of the sky, or in a given time range, etc.
And given the data volume that’s all they want.
Maybe they’ll come back later and ask for a subset
of additional data products after they’ve performed
some preliminary analyses on those data products,
but they don’t want those up front.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Based on these usage patterns, I think we will
likely want to expose the remaining CSC data
products individually.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>—Ian</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jan 27, 2026, at 09:52, BONNAREL
FRANCOIS gmail via heig <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:heig@ivoa.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><heig@ivoa.net></a>
wrote:</div>
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content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>After the meeting last week, I was still
thinking about what the Chandra prototype
could look like</p>
<p>For the Paris HESS prototype, I get the
idea since a couple of years now. <br>
</p>
<p>Trying to understand what the CSC data
products could be I came back to Ian's
Malta interop presentation.</p>
<p>I copy/paste here one of the slides where
some of these products are described.</p>
<p>Before trying to define dataproduct_type
vocabulary terms for those products I am
wondering if we really need to expose all
this data directly in</p>
<p>an ObsTAP service.</p>
<p>For example background images, psf, pixel
mask, bad pixel regions, ARF belong to the
"response functions" category if I'm not
mistaking. <br>
</p>
<p>They probably are attached to a photon
event list or an image or ....</p>
<p>Including all this in the main ObsCore
table will overload it very
heterogeneously. Some of these response
functions will be similar to what we get
in other domains (psf) some will be very
different and specific to Xray.</p>
<p>I understood that the spatial, spectral,
time characterization of these specific
products could be borrowed from the
observation they are associated with. It's
ok but is that useful ?</p>
<p>For accessing these response functions I
can imagine 4 solutions which all will
have the advantage to let the OBsTAp
service be focused on measurements
obtained from the sky at whatever calib
level.</p>
<p> 1 ) the photon event list and
response functions are gathered together
in the same tar or archive file (or MEF)
which is typed as an event-bundle. Direct
access to this bundle from Obstap
access_url is then easy. It's the client
task to figure out what to do with the
content of the bundle.</p>
<p> 2 ) the various response material is
kept as a set of individual products. All
are associated to an event list or an
image or a spectrum. In that case ObsTAP
point to a datalink response which lists
all these different products. The
semantics FIELD writes calibration or
response function. Content_qalifier FIELD
writes the very nature of the product.</p>
<p> 3 ) the DataLink reponse content may
be organized as a TAP table. It's then
possible to query at the same time the
ObsTAP table and the DataLink-like table
by a join on
ObsCore/obs_publisher_did-DataLink/ID</p>
<p> 4 ) if we need a more detailed
description of the response products to
help discover and select them we could
imagine creating a specific "response
product" table following a specific
datamodel as proposed by Mireille in her
Gorlitz presentation. This will allow to
attach specific eg :</p>
<p> - time range to a psf or</p>
<p> - specific release date and
description to an arf or a bad pixel map</p>
<p> -.... <br>
</p>
<p> Natural join on obs_publisher_did
in both tables will allow to query those
table at the same time with selection
criteria from both.<br>
</p>
<p> Cheers</p>
<p>François<br>
</p>
<p> <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><span
id="cid:part1.601HUn9S.HmZf1KQZ@gmail.com"><ulnvpjC4zXtPT0zn.png></span></p>
</div>
-- <br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bruno Khelifi
Physicist at CNRS (laboratory APC, Paris)
Phone: +33.1.57.27.61.58 - Fax: +33.1.57.27.60.71
APC, IN2P3/CNRS - Universite de Paris Cite
</pre>
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