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<div class="moz-forward-container">Dear Bruno, dear Ian, all<br>
</div>
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</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">We come back to this. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">There is no doubt for us that
VO should provide ways to expose such things as "background
images" or in your case, Bruno, background rate.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">Our concern is about forcing
ObsCore to be this way to expose such datasets. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">When we designed ObsCore the
intention was to design a data model and an associated tap
table to expose science data. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">By science data we mean data
where we can detect some information of interest coming from the
sky. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">If we don't do this and extend
the domain of ObsCore too much we force it to become something
else and to loose universality. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">So according to this general
definition we don't think response function belong to the
ObsCore domain. Advanced data products are another issue we
won't discuss them today.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">Of course there are plenty of
ways to expose those data and relate them with science data. VO
must for sure improve their description and access modes</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">DataLink is the minimal method
to make response data accessible and relate them to relevant
science data but may present the drawback to be a "two steps"
process. If direct access to response data is required in a one
step process we suggest to explore the solution of defining the
DataLink response table as a TAP table in order to allow JOINS
with the ObsCore science data table. </div>
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</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">But it is true that the
description provided by DataLink is rather poor. </div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">So, alternativeky, when needed,
different tables may be defined to describe response function
datasets and provide pointers to them if necessary.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"> A table with ucd on most of
the columns (existing ucds or new ones to define) would already
provide a lot of interoperability between services providing
response data.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"> Moreover, defining
"response function data models" may provide more flexible and
accurate descriptions and acces methods. Datamodels may be
embedded in VOTables and mapped to columns using utypes or
Mango+Mivot.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"> We think some sections of
the HeiG note should be revised in these directions.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"> We are ready to help to do
that. </div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"> </div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">François with Mireille<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 07/02/2026 à 19:15, Bruno Khelifi
via heig a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:46124110-cc41-477d-b903-5fc4b762e6e7@apc.in2p3.fr">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>About "Background images and pixel masks are not
response-function data products", maybe this is the case for
X-rays. I won't discuss it.</p>
<p>As reminder, the term `background` is very generic and can be
used for everything. In gamma-ray astronomy, it is from cosmic
rays (it is not broken pixels, that are handled much more
earlier during the raw data processing). In the GeV, TeV, PeV,
the background rate is without any doubt an IRF!<br>
In contrary to X-rays, 3D analysis are routinely made. For that
the counts are compared with the predicted counts, that is the
sum of the ones associated to gamma rays and the ones associated
to the background rate, that are badly classified events as
gamma-rays (see our notes). The estimation of the background
rate can not be done on the data, because they are gamma rays
everywhere in the field of view for the galactic plane (ie one
can not use 'OFF' regions). As reminder, the Fermi bubble or
eRosita bubble are going very up in latitudes. Also, one can not
use simulations of cosmic rays to estimate the background,
because the resources would be much too high and also because
the simulations badly reproduce the reality (many studies made
since decades show that). We use a complex pipeline that takes
in input data, creates some exclusion masks iteratively in 3D,
generates templates of rate in an hypercube ( [X,Y] or theta,
atmospheric quality observable, optical efficiency of our
instruments, Zenith angles, azimuth angles between of the
geomagnetic effect on the extensive air showers, and
reconstructed energy), curates the data to handle empty bins and
low statistics bin, interpolates this hypercube template to
compute the observation-wise background rate.</p>
<p>For the neutrino telescopes, real data are also used. A
specific pipeline is of use also to compute the background rate.</p>
<p>So, one should keep without any doubt the background rate as
data product!</p>
<p>Best,<br>
Bruno</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 04/02/2026 à 20:38, Dr. Ian N.
Evans via heig a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D87B478A-C4D8-4BCC-9A47-5F193B34747C@cfa.harvard.edu">
<meta http-equiv="content-type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Dear Francois,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I consider the arf, rmf, and psf to be response-function
data products. Background images and pixel masks are not
response-function data products - they are determined directly
from the observation event list similarly to a total counts
image. Bad pixel is a region data product, but it’s something
of a gray area since it’s a combination of known bad pixel
regions plus bad pixel regions derived directly from the
observation event list.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the Chandra Source Catalog (CSC) prototype, at least
initially we plan to expose all of the data products directly
to demonstrate that the extension provides the flexibility
that we need. However in production, we likely would not
expose all of the data products individually but rather
combine some of them with the event lists as event bundles (at
least for the individual observation full-field data product
set). We would want to expose the individual observation
event lists individually, but might choose for example to
construct an event bundle that exposes (at least) the event
list, bad pixel regions, aspect histogram, and possible aspect
solution as a bundle since there is very little use for the
latter 3 types of data product without the event list.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While tying associated and derived data products to an
event list in an event bundle seems sensible for individual
observations, our experience is that this isn’t appropriate
for the CSC advanced data products. Since CSC 2.0 was
released we have had millions of catalog data product
downloads and surveyed our user base as to data product usage.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The typical usage patterns for the CSC advanced data
products are different from the typical usage patterns for
individual X-ray observation data.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the latter the user typically downloads the event list
and ancillary data products (such as responses or other data
products that can be used to build responses) as a set, and
then performs data analysis steps directly on the event list
using the ancillary data products, often after applying
spatial/spectral/temporal filters to the data. Event bundles
facilitate this usage.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the CSC advanced data products the usage patterns are
quite different. Many (most) of these advanced data products
are derived from multiple (in some cases hundreds)
observations. Typically the users aren’t interested in
performing data analysis steps on the event lists themselves,
and often aren’t interested in knowing which observation(s)
they are derived from (at least not from the perspective of
having to perform a data query). They just want (e.g.) all
the spectra (or light curves, or photometry MPDFs, or ...) in
a certain region of the sky, or in a given time range, etc.
And given the data volume that’s all they want. Maybe
they’ll come back later and ask for a subset of additional
data products after they’ve performed some preliminary
analyses on those data products, but they don’t want those up
front.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Based on these usage patterns, I think we will likely
want to expose the remaining CSC data products individually.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>—Ian</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jan 27, 2026, at 09:52, BONNAREL FRANCOIS gmail
via heig <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:heig@ivoa.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><heig@ivoa.net></a>
wrote:</div>
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<div>
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>After the meeting last week, I was still thinking
about what the Chandra prototype could look like</p>
<p>For the Paris HESS prototype, I get the idea since
a couple of years now. <br>
</p>
<p>Trying to understand what the CSC data products
could be I came back to Ian's Malta interop
presentation.</p>
<p>I copy/paste here one of the slides where some of
these products are described.</p>
<p>Before trying to define dataproduct_type vocabulary
terms for those products I am wondering if we really
need to expose all this data directly in</p>
<p>an ObsTAP service.</p>
<p>For example background images, psf, pixel mask, bad
pixel regions, ARF belong to the "response
functions" category if I'm not mistaking. <br>
</p>
<p>They probably are attached to a photon event list
or an image or ....</p>
<p>Including all this in the main ObsCore table will
overload it very heterogeneously. Some of these
response functions will be similar to what we get in
other domains (psf) some will be very different and
specific to Xray.</p>
<p>I understood that the spatial, spectral, time
characterization of these specific products could be
borrowed from the observation they are associated
with. It's ok but is that useful ?</p>
<p>For accessing these response functions I can
imagine 4 solutions which all will have the
advantage to let the OBsTAp service be focused on
measurements obtained from the sky at whatever calib
level.</p>
<p> 1 ) the photon event list and response
functions are gathered together in the same tar or
archive file (or MEF) which is typed as an
event-bundle. Direct access to this bundle from
Obstap access_url is then easy. It's the client task
to figure out what to do with the content of the
bundle.</p>
<p> 2 ) the various response material is kept as a
set of individual products. All are associated to an
event list or an image or a spectrum. In that case
ObsTAP point to a datalink response which lists all
these different products. The semantics FIELD writes
calibration or response function. Content_qalifier
FIELD writes the very nature of the product.</p>
<p> 3 ) the DataLink reponse content may be
organized as a TAP table. It's then possible to
query at the same time the ObsTAP table and the
DataLink-like table by a join on
ObsCore/obs_publisher_did-DataLink/ID</p>
<p> 4 ) if we need a more detailed description of the
response products to help discover and select them
we could imagine creating a specific "response
product" table following a specific datamodel as
proposed by Mireille in her Gorlitz presentation.
This will allow to attach specific eg :</p>
<p> - time range to a psf or</p>
<p> - specific release date and description to an
arf or a bad pixel map</p>
<p> -.... <br>
</p>
<p> Natural join on obs_publisher_did in both
tables will allow to query those table at the same
time with selection criteria from both.<br>
</p>
<p> Cheers</p>
<p>François<br>
</p>
<p> <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><span id="cid:part1.601HUn9S.HmZf1KQZ@gmail.com"><ulnvpjC4zXtPT0zn.png></span></p>
</div>
-- <br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bruno Khelifi
Physicist at CNRS (laboratory APC, Paris)
Phone: +33.1.57.27.61.58 - Fax: +33.1.57.27.60.71
APC, IN2P3/CNRS - Universite de Paris Cite
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