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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Ian,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> The difficult thing is that we only
have ObsCore 1.1 and we discuss also with some future features of
Obscore 1.2 in mind.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> But anyway :</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> - As you say, ObsCore 1.1 has
dataproduct_type vocabulary defined in the ŝpec.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> - ObsCore 1.2 will (probably,
almost certainly) use <a
href="https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type/2024-05-19/product-type.html">https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type/</a>
(any version) in dataproduct_type FIELD</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> - in appendix B1.2 below the
so-called rdf vocabulary is implicitly different from the
product_type one. because if it was <a
href="https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type/2024-05-19/product-type.html">https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type/</a>
it would be useless. With syntaxes like the one in my point 2
below (By the way thanks to Markus to have fixed it in a more
rigorous way in his own answer to may May 28th email:<span
style="white-space: pre-wrap"> "WHERE 1=ivo_vocmatch(</span><span
style="white-space: pre-wrap"> 'product-type', </span><span
style="white-space: pre-wrap"> 'event-list',</span><span
style="white-space: pre-wrap"> dataproduct_type)" </span>) you
can always match the higher level types to any lower level one in
the hierarchy. So it is useless twouse two fields for that. Except
if we would like to use the 1.1 specification in dataproduct_type
and a revised <a
href="https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type/2024-05-19/product-type.html">https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type/</a>
in <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">dataproduct_subtype FIELD. But I think
it would be ugly and in the long term a very bad idea</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> - So, if we need and want to
use an IVOA rdf vocabulary in subtype, it SHOULD be a new one, a
different one than <a
href="https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type/2024-05-19/product-type.html">https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type/</a>.
(this is also valid for content_qualifier in DataLink). And I
think it is needed because the underlying classification rules in
dataproduct_type vocabulary is based on axes occurence and
sampling and the response type is really something different.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Cheers</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">François<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 29/05/2025 à 18:18, Dr. Ian N. Evans
a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E46B1BD9-9320-4CB0-B9BE-096B89A84CCE@cfa.harvard.edu">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Hi Francois,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That is very helpful, but I’m a little unclear as to all the
implications.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I note that section B.1.2 specifically referees to the
vocabulary RDF so you have the option of using the vocabulary
for dataproduct_subtype. However, this option is specifically
NOT mentioned in the ObsCore Recommendation in association with
dataproduct_type, so formally that implies using the vocabulary
with the latter is not allowed (and that makes sense given that
the Recommendation defines specific classifications for
dataproduct_type).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, if I look at <a
href="https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type/2024-05-19/product-type.html"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/product-type/2024-05-19/product-type.html</a> there
are no constraints identified as to where specific terms may be
used, and the text of section B.1.2 similarly imposes no
constraints. That would seem to allow me to (for example)
specify</div>
<div>dataproduct_type = image and dataproduct_subtype =
spatially-resolved-dataset, which would invert the parent-child
relationship (or even dataproduct_type = sed,
dataproduct_subtype = time-cube as an extreme example) as there
is no formal relationship defined between the enumerated
dataproduct_types in the Recommendation and the RDF vocabulary
entries that can be used for dataproduct_subtype.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I assume the formalisms needed to make these play cleanly
together have yet to be developed?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(This is separate from my previous comments at the Malta
Interop regarding the lack of rigorous definitions for some of
the vocabulary entries that makes it unclear whether they do or
do not work for HEA data.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>—Ian</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On May 28, 2025, at 16:24, BONNAREL FRANCOIS gmail
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:francois.bonnarel@gmail.com"><francois.bonnarel@gmail.com></a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Ian, all,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">1 ) Using a new IVOA
vocabulary for "response functions" in the
dataproduct_subtype of ObsCore is perfectly allowed</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">See this section of the
spec</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<blockquote type="cite">B.1.2. Data Product Subtype
(dataproduct_subtype)<br>
In order to be more precise the data product type
may be refined with a second field, the data<br>
product subtype. Unlike the more generic
dataproduct_type, this field is intended to
precisely<br>
specify the scientific nature of the data product,
possibly in terms relevant only to a specific<br>
archive or data collection. While less useful for
global data discovery this allows the data<br>
products within a specific archive to be precisely
identified and referenced in queries of that<br>
specific archive. The data provider should define a
vocabulary sufficient to classify all science<br>
data products in their archive to be exposed with
ObsTAP. In the future we may be able to<br>
define broader standards to classify data at this
level, although it will likely always be the case<br>
that data differs at the level of specific
instrumental survey data collections. The data
product<br>
subtype allows data within a specific archive or
data collection to be precisely classified and<br>
referenced in subsequent discovery queries. The list
of terms defined for dataproduct_subtype<br>
labels should be published by the data centers and
documented. These can be gathered as<br>
an IVOA vocabulary in a RDF dedicated resource for
instance.<br>
However, in the meantime, the vocabulary used can be
discovered easily by a simple query<br>
based on ‘select distinct …’</blockquote>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Distinguishing terms which
are defined by the data provider only and others which
are part of an "official" IVOA vocabulary can easily
be done*</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">by using the full URI of
the term in the latter case. For example <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">dataproduct_type : cube<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">dataproduct_subtype : <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/responsefunction_type%23psf&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw2sqE7d0ipURWwYDmJISHCR"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/responsefunction_type#psf</a></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">beside <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">dataproduct_type :
spectrum<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">dataproduct_subtype
:hard-Xray (or whatever provider dependant term)</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">2 ) Thinking more about it
and reading one of Bruno's emails claiming that
response functions may be multi-d cubes, spectra, or
images I don't think we need to set dataproduct_type
= <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/responsefunction_type%23response-function&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw3sJAvG7qaxYzjssIFanOoD"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/responsefunction_type#response-function</a>
(even if I wrote that a week ago).</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> </div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Indeed , our IVOA
vocabularies are hierarchical and recognition software
should take this into account</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">A query with a constraint
such as "WHERE ivoa_smaller(dataproduct_subtype,<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/responsefunction_type%23response-function&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw3sJAvG7qaxYzjssIFanOoD"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ivoa.net/rdf/responsefunction_type#response-function</a>")
should validate for #psf, #lsf, #arf, etc....</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">3 ) This of course would be
interesting only in the case that response function
can be described by ObsCore attributes, which is not
obvious after reading the discussion between Ian and
Mireille</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Cheers</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">François<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 21/05/2025 à 20:16, Dr.
Ian N. Evans via heig a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:10869BF3-31D3-4C34-B799-ED5B778A56BF@cfa.harvard.edu">
<meta http-equiv="content-type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Hi Mireille,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the current draft of the HEA ObsCore note, I
access a PSF using</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>dataproduct_type = ‘response-function’</div>
<div>dataproduct_subtype = ‘psf’</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>because a PSF is a type of response-function (and
there are many types of response function so adding
all of these separately as different
dataproduct_type would grow the list very
significantly. Having said that, using
dataproduct_subtype may not be ideal because there
is not a vocabulary for the latter defined in
ObsCore. In the future, if we were to migrate to a
dataproduct_type vocabulary that included all the
different types of products then I might do things
differently.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For Chandra, the PSF is dependent on off-axis
(theta) and azimuthal (phi) angles relative to the
mirror optical axis, and also energy (and the
detector can be moved relative to the mirror optical
axis so this does not translate to detector
coordinates). Note that this also means that the
PSF varies significantly across the field of view of
a single observation. Trying to query to find a PSF
in this manner would require significant
enhancements to ObsCore to support non-celestial
coordinate systems that will be facility-dependent.
However, to identify PSFs associated with a
particular source detection in a single observation,
one could use a query like (current use case A.1.3)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">SELECT
* FROM ivoa.obscore</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">WHERE</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">(CONTAINS(POINT(s_ra,
s_dec), CIRCLE, 83.84358, -5.43639, 0.033333) = 1)</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">AND
(dataproduct_type EQ ‘response-function’)</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">AND
(dataproduct_subtype EQ ‘psf’)</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">AND
(obs_id = ‘4374’)</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">AND
(obs_collection = ‘CSC2’)</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">since
we have specified both an obs_id and a position on
the sky - which for a single observation will map
to a specific (theta, phi). This would return all
PSFs for different energies for that source
detection and observation from CSC release 2.
Note that if I didn’t specify the obs_id, I would
get PSFs for all of the observations that included
that location on the sky (and the different
energies) from the catalog. You would need the
obs_id to tie them to a specific observation.
However, perhaps you want to identify which (if
any) observations that include your source have
PSFs that are small enough to deblend a nearby
source (this can be complicated for Chandra since
off-axis PSFs have very complex, asymmetric
structures that vary with bth theta and phi).</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">We
don’t have any extant ObsCore tables for PSFs. I
have tried to mock up a conceptual single entry
ObsCore table for a Chandra PSF - hopefully it
will be helpful. I don’t know that all the values
are populated correctly, or even if the table and
column values would all validate. </div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<meta http-equiv="content-type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta http-equiv="content-type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">With
regard to vocabulary, I prefer “response-function”
as the higher level concept rather than “irf” (we
started out with just “response” but Markus
convinced me that term was too overloaded and
“response-function” is technically correct.
Response-functions are widely applicable across
multiple wavebands. For example, a point spread
function is a type of response-function that is
used across all wavebands. Similarly, a line
spread function is a response-function used in UV
through IR spectroscopy. The term “irf” is not
generally used across all high-energy projects.
In the USA, most high-energy projects follow the
NASA HEASARC OGIP standards, and so will use “rmf”
for the redistribution matrix file” and “arf” for
the “auxiliary response file” (and will keep these
separate). Internationally, some projects
historically used “irf” to represent the product
of the rmf and arf. More recently some projects
have used “irf” as the equivalent of
“response-function” giving it a broader
interpretation. So this can be a source of
confusion and lack of clarity. I also note that
“irf” stands for “instrument response function”
and there are certainly response-functions such as
software filters (e.g., a modified Hanning filter
used for optimal extraction) where “instrument”
would be a misnomer.</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">I
might suggest something more like</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">response-function</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">arf
as child of response-function</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">rmf
as child of response-function</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">psf
as child of response-function</div>
<div
style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">lsf
as child of response-function (not HEA)</div>
</div>
<div>...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is irf a child of response-function? The
original usage of irf as product of rmf and arf
definitely would be. Interpreted in a more general
way I would still say yes (“instrument response
function” is a child of “response function”.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I’m not convinced that background/background
rate/background noise are response-functions, and
these concepts have much wider applicability across
multiple wavebands.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>—Ian</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On May 19, 2025, at 14:43, Mireille Louys
via heig <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:heig@ivoa.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><heig@ivoa.net></a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Hi Ian, hi folks,<br>
</p>
<p>Thanks for the various querying
scenarios. <br>
</p>
<p>I understand the PSF use case you
describe would be something like: <br>
</p>
<p>give me all dataproduct_type='psf' with
additional constraints like<br>
</p>
<div>SELECT TOP 100 * FROM ivoa.ObsCore</div>
<div>WHERE obs_id='22830' and
dataproduct_type='psf'</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How is the relationship between a PSF
data product with a data file? <br>
</div>
<div>through obs_id, obs_publisher_id, ? </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>Can we explore how the obscore1.1
table would be filled for a PSF data
product? <br>
</div>
<div>are there file examples? <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I understand we identify here a
vocabulary to identify various irf file
like : "psf , irf, arf, rmf, background
noise, etc..."</div>
<div>with a kind of hierarchy like <br>
</div>
<div><i>irf</i></div>
<div><i>arf as child of irf <br>
</i></div>
<div><i>rmf as child of irf <br>
</i></div>
<div><i>psf as child of irf </i></div>
<div><i>back_ground_noise </i><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>with the assumption that em_ucd, sxel1,
sxel2, em_xel etc. can be filled in the
Obscore table.</div>
<div>Parametric functions could not be
described here.<br>
</div>
<p>so if these are obscore data
product_types we should be able to
describe these features. <br>
</p>
<p>the "content_qualifier" used in data
link, if I remember well, can be
something else than an obscore data
product type also. <br>
</p>
<p>(to be checked)</p>
<p>I will look deeper in this and come back
on the topic soon,</p>
<p>Cheers, Mireille<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 30/04/2025 à
19:52, Dr. Ian N. Evans via semantics a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5BA6DAF3-9C7D-4323-AE77-5E7747BFE758@cfa.harvard.edu">
<meta http-equiv="content-type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto"
style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Hi
Markus,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>See inline comments below.<br
id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Apr 25, 2025, at 03:29,
Markus Demleitner via heig <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:heig@ivoa.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><heig@ivoa.net></a>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>Dear Mireille,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your VEP.<br>
<br>
On Thu, Apr 24, 2025 at
06:16:36PM +0200, Mireille
Louys via semantics wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">•
Proposedefinitionsforaproduct-type
*event-bundle:* An
event-bundledataset<br>
is a complex object
containing an event-list and
multiple files or<br>
other substructures that are
products necessary to
analyse the event-list.<br>
Data in an event-bundle may
thus be used to produce
higher leveldata<br>
products such as images or
spectra.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I think the definition is
reasonably clear and
applicable in<br>
practice. Before merging
this, however, I'd have a few
requests for<br>
clarification:<br>
<br>
(1) used-in: I really,
*really* would like to see
actual, published<br>
data here (always, in all
VEPs; it's a pain if we go
into all the<br>
trouble of defining a concept
and then nobody's ever using
it in<br>
practice). I see that CSC on
<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.google.com/url?q%253Dhttp://cda.cfa.harvard.edu/csctap%2526source%253Dgmail-imap%2526ust%253D1746354088000000%2526usg%253DAOvVaw0j-MeVn0RHNoz8KtLXi1tH%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1748285049000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw2DjRh3S8cB8tFIcUA80lAP&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw18-E2byHR_Abgs_u2Ac-12"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.google.com/url?q=http://cda.cfa.harvard.edu/csctap&source=gmail-imap&ust=1746354088000000&usg=AOvVaw0j-MeVn0RHNoz8KtLXi1tH</a>
(or<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.google.com/url?q%253Dhttp://cda.cfa.harvard.edu/csc21tap%2526source%253Dgmail-imap%2526ust%253D1746354088000000%2526usg%253DAOvVaw3xeGe6fO6Vz7vemy8dYWD2%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1748285049000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw3UWFd1iFdeRYI9WN2Qo6bS&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw0YWDP5vLy-XSKx5Zx2HxME"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.google.com/url?q=http://cda.cfa.harvard.edu/csc21tap&source=gmail-imap&ust=1746354088000000&usg=AOvVaw3xeGe6fO6Vz7vemy8dYWD2</a>
[1]) has an obscore table. It<br>
would really be excellent if
they could mark up their event
bundles<br>
with the new term, such that
we could say:<br>
<br>
used-in: dataset
ivo://csc.harvard.edu/scsr2?some-obs-id
on <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.google.com/url?q%253Dhttp://cda.cfa.harvard.edu/csctap%2526source%253Dgmail-imap%2526ust%253D1746354088000000%2526usg%253DAOvVaw0j-MeVn0RHNoz8KtLXi1tH%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1748285049000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw2DjRh3S8cB8tFIcUA80lAP&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw18-E2byHR_Abgs_u2Ac-12"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.google.com/url?q=http://cda.cfa.harvard.edu/csctap&source=gmail-imap&ust=1746354088000000&usg=AOvVaw0j-MeVn0RHNoz8KtLXi1tH</a><br>
<br>
That would help me maintain a
clear consciousness when
setting up the<br>
new term[2].<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I’m not sure that we would use
event bundles for any of the CSC
data product types, since our
catalog users generally want to
discover and retrieve individual
data products (typically, many of
the same data product such as a
light curve or aperture photometry
MPDF for a set of sources, such as
all high redshift quasars).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We do make event bundles
available through the Chandra Data
Archive (CDA) ObsCore for
individual observations, but we
have been doing this for many
years and therefore those bundles
do not conform to the proposed
ObsCore HE extension. For
example, at <a
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://cda.harvard.edu/cxctap%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1748285049000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1osNhMXJN152xT0aElNEAx&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw3T3Tt1aM9_4MNrRNRt5sA2"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://cda.harvard.edu/cxctap</a> one
might do a query like</div>
<div>SELECT TOP 100</div>
<div> *</div>
<div>FROM ivoa.ObsCore</div>
<div>WHERE obs_id='22830'</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The bundles currently have
dataproduct_type = ‘’ and
correspond to the Chandra
“primary” and “primary” +
“secondary” data product
categories for the observation.
The “primary” package includes a
basic set of data products that an
observer would need to analyze the
observation and produce
photometrically calibrated
spectra, while the “secondary” set
would be needed in addition if the
user wanted to recalibrate the
observation with updated
calibrations (which we recommend
because some updated calibrations
only become available typically
several months after an
observation is completed as
calibrations such as detector gain
change with time). The bundles
are tarballs and have
access_format “application/x-tar”.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Note that our bundles do not
include responses, unlike (e.g.)
CTAO. This is partly because the
spacecraft dithers on the sky
during an observation so any
target moves across the detector
during the observation. So the
responses depend critically on the
user’s choice of data filtering.
We follow the HEASARC standards
and provide separate RMF and ARF
data products rather than a
combined IRF. For spectral
fitting, the integrated ARF (i.e.,
the effective area integrated over
an energy range) also depends on
the source spectral model, so we
provide tools for the user to
compute the responses and the data
products needed to do so in the
“primary” bundle. See <a
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://cxc.harvard.edu/cda/DataProdList.html%2523A%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1748285049000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw0eJtuR1mszvZkzvJoxtC64&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw3rBHXXBKz2UBwf4_TolKei"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://cxc.harvard.edu/cda/DataProdList.html#A</a> for
the list of Chandra primary and
secondary products.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>
(2) Relationship: That's an
operational field, i.e., I
need to create<br>
an RDF triple from this. The
question thus is: is
#event-list wider<br>
than #event-bundle or is it
the other way round? I could
conjure up<br>
arguments for both, so, as
usual, I'd approach the
question from the<br>
user side: If I'm looking for
#event-bundle, do I want to
see<br>
#event-list, too? If I'm
looking for #event-list, do I
want to see<br>
#event-bundle, too? Whatever
ought to encompass the other
is the<br>
wider term.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would guess probably not, but
maybe. I think an event bundle
will always include the event
list, so if you are asking for an
event bundle then the event list
would be redundant. Note that an
event bundle could really be a
physical bundle such as a tar file
(as is the case for Chandra) or
perhaps all the products are
accessed via DataLink. If
somebody asks for an event list,
they probably just want the event
list but perhaps they don’t know
about event bundles and therefore
might like to see both. There are
definitely cases where they really
do want just the event list - for
example, a lot of folks are
interested only in morphological
studies and, especially if they
want all observations of an object
or class of object, bundles may
add a lot of extra unwanted data
volume. Would it hurt to see
them? Well if your query returns
500 event lists and also 500
bundles it just muddies the
waters. For users of advanced
data products (e.g., Chandra
Source Catalog products) I suspect
that bundles would likely never be
desired (and as I said above, I
don’t think we would provide
them).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Conversely, some folks may only
want responses and not the
associated event lists. At the
catalog level for example, we have
lots of folks who just want to
download point spread functions.
Why? The Chandra PSF varies
strongly (~factor of 50) across
the field of view (with off-axis
angle and azimuthal angle) and
also with energy. We actually
archive the local PSF for every
catalog detection at several
energies, and with ~50,000 counts.
So we effectively have a library
of (currently) ~1.3 million
Chandra PSFs at several energies
that are catalog advanced data
products and may save users from
having to create their own PSFs.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A lot of our actual catalog
usage cases start with users
querying the catalog, then
refining their sample and
retrieving a subset of catalog
data products (likely including
event lists), then retrieving
additional data products such as
light curves, spectra, or aperture
photometry products as they work
through their analyses. These
products are not part of bundles,
but we find this usage pattern of
wanting to retrieve additional
products in stages to be quite
common for folks who are doing
archival science (vs. those who
are retrieving their own
observation data).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>
(3) Rationale: If the answer
to both of the two questions
in the<br>
preceding paragraph is "Yes",
then it turns out the concepts
are<br>
identical (A ⊂ B and B ⊂ A
implies A = B), and hence you
really don't<br>
want a new concept but
augement #event-list to be
something like,<br>
say, "Event list, possibly
augmented with ancillary
information".<br>
This points to an issue with
your rationale: It basically
argues that<br>
there's something you would
like to say.<br>
<br>
An aphorism I'm bringing up
rather often these days is:
"In protocol<br>
design, don't think about what
you want to say. Think about
what<br>
others want to listen to."
Hence, it's be really great
if the<br>
rationale said why someone
would want to look for
#event-bundle<br>
*rather than* #event-list (or
for #event-list rather than<br>
#event-bundle, if the the
former is the narrower term).
Could you<br>
provide that information in
the Rationale section?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Markus<br>
<br>
<br>
[1] Regrettably, the CSC TAP
services seem to be mildly
broken at the<br>
moment. Coming in with http,
they issue https redirects
which<br>
confuse TOPCAT; CXC folks: if
you really need the forced
redirects<br>
(see<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.google.com/url?q%253Dhttps://blog.tfiu.de/foced-https-redirects-considered-harmful.html%2526source%253Dgmail-imap%2526ust%253D1746354088000000%2526usg%253DAOvVaw2y6JI9YuzGb_dp9cgELJym%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1748285049000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw3Mx2gmG2CVqaJJvwc2y0Em&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw3tgksXl1UErZ_qMf66q5rQ"
moz-do-not-send="true"><https://www.google.com/url?q=https://blog.tfiu.de/foced-https-redirects-considered-harmful.html&source=gmail-imap&ust=1746354088000000&usg=AOvVaw2y6JI9YuzGb_dp9cgELJym></a>
for<br>
a better alternative) then
please update your registry
records to<br>
point to the https URIs. Even
with https, however, I'm
getting a<br>
"cscrel2.dbo.obscore not
found" error from TOPCAT when
running<br>
<br>
select top 30 * from
ivoa.obscore where
dataproduct_type='event-list'<br>
<br>
It would be great if you could
fix that (and a regular run of
stilts<br>
taplint is good practice
anyway)<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
The https to http redirects is a
known issue and should be fixed in
the next full data system release,
which is scheduled for mid-June.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We’ll look into the other issue
you reported.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>
[2] You see,<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.google.com/url?q%253Dhttps://ivoa.net/documents/Vocabularies/20230206/REC-Vocabularies-2.1.html%252523tth_sEcC.2%2526source%253Dgmail-imap%2526ust%253D1746354088000000%2526usg%253DAOvVaw0vPm8jxoQ6ePuvFWnKr6ez%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1748285049000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1ycrZjjO3nsONKTFOZrKdf&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw3LMWSLcWjTutlm2E-tPdDi"
moz-do-not-send="true"><https://www.google.com/url?q=https://ivoa.net/documents/Vocabularies/20230206/REC-Vocabularies-2.1.html%23tth_sEcC.2&source=gmail-imap&ust=1746354088000000&usg=AOvVaw0vPm8jxoQ6ePuvFWnKr6ez></a>,<br>
while not exactly normative,
is clear on:<br>
<br>
In particular, ensure [...]
resources mentioned in Used-in
can be<br>
reached and reflect the
proposed term [...]<br>
<br>
-- <br>
heig mailing list<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:heig@ivoa.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">heig@ivoa.net</a><br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.google.com/url?q%253Dhttp://mail.ivoa.net/mailman/listinfo/heig%2526source%253Dgmail-imap%2526ust%253D1746354088000000%2526usg%253DAOvVaw0wTMYFfnqD-UBwfT4NR3kr%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1748285049000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw3JvlR5ZVmizFNtZop7Txrj&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749068701000000&usg=AOvVaw3UGyod-EYAIg_I3GJyRFAM"
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Thanks,
<div>—Ian</div>
<div><br>
<div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
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Mireille Louys, MCF (Assistant Professor)
Centre de données Astronomiques (CDS) Equipe Images, ICube
Observatoire de Strasbourg Telecom Physique Strasbourg
11, rue de l' Université 300, Bd Sebastien Brandt CS 10413
F-67000 Strasbourg F-67412 Illkirch Cedex</pre>
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