<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Markus,<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On May 28, 2025, at 09:55, Markus Demleitner via heig <heig@ivoa.net> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>Dear Colleagues,<br><br>On Wed, May 21, 2025 at 02:16:52PM -0400, Dr. Ian N. Evans via semantics wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">In the current draft of the HEA ObsCore note, I access a PSF using<br><br>dataproduct_type = ‘response-function’<br>dataproduct_subtype = ‘psf’<br><br>because a PSF is a type of response-function (and there are many<br>types of response function so adding all of these separately as<br>different dataproduct_type would grow the list very significantly.<br></blockquote><br>Let me first retract my earlier appeal to have these in<br>datalink/core; that would have been the right choice if these were<br>really only auxiliary artefacts.<br><br>Since there seems to be a wide consensus that these beasts ought be<br>be able to live within dataproduct-type. That would mean that, when<br>they *are* in datalink, they'd be semantices #calibration and<br>content-qualifier something narrower or equal to response-function.<br><br>Are we in rough agreement here?<br><br>If so:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">“response-function” is technically correct. Response-functions are<br>widely applicable across multiple wavebands. For example, a point<br>spread function is a type of response-function that is used across<br>all wavebands. Similarly, a line spread function is a<br>response-function used in UV through IR spectroscopy. The term<br>“irf” is not generally used across all high-energy projects. In<br>the USA, most high-energy projects follow the NASA HEASARC OGIP<br>standards, and so will use “rmf” for the redistribution matrix<br>file” and “arf” for the “auxiliary response file” (and will keep<br>these separate). Internationally, some projects historically used<br>“irf” to represent the product of the rmf and arf. More recently<br>some projects have used “irf” as the equivalent of<br>“response-function” giving it a broader interpretation. So this<br>can be a source of confusion and lack of clarity. I also note that<br>“irf” stands for “instrument response function” and there are<br>certainly response-functions such as software filters (e.g., a<br>modified Hanning filter used for optimal extraction) where<br>“instrument” would be a misnomer.<br></blockquote><br>Thank you for that clarification. Is something like this already in<br>the HEIG note? If not, can I ask you to prepare a PR putting this<br>in?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>It isn’t at that level of detail, but could easily be expanded up.</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite">I might suggest something more like<br>response-function<br>arf as child of response-function<br>rmf as child of response-function<br>psf as child of response-function<br>lsf as child of response-function (not HEA)<br></blockquote><br>Which begs the question: Do we have cases where we actually need to<br>tell those apart *in discovery*? What sort of obscore query would<br>need to constrain discovery to rmf and would be severely less useful<br>if you got psfs and arfs in, too?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Well, as an example, let’s query Chandra Source Catalog data products located within 30 arcsec radius of Sgr A*. A very hypothetical query could be along the lines of </div><div><br></div><div><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">SELECT * FROM ivoa.obscore</p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">NATURAL JOIN ivoa.obscore-hea</p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">WHERE</p></div><div><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">(CONTAINS(POINT(s_ra, s_dec), CIRCLE, 266.41681662, -29.00782497, 0.0083333333) = 1)</p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">AND (dataproduct_type EQ ‘response-function’)</p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">AND (dataproduct_subtype EQ ‘rmf’)</p><p class="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-width: normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal;">AND (obs_collection = ‘CSC2’)</p></div><div><br></div><div>This query would return 6,010 data products totaling 9,363,824,640 bytes.</div><div><br></div><div>The same query without the (dataproduct_subtype EQ ‘rmf’) clause (i.e., returning rmfs, arfs, and psfs) would return 104,740 data products totaling 22,396,100,887 bytes.</div><div><br></div><div>So I think you would want to tell them apart in discovery.</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><br>Full disclosure up front: I'd be very skeptical about an arument that<br>you need it to tell apart the individual artifacts; I'm 100% sure<br>that type information needs to be in the dataset itself, and that we<br>need to fix the datasets if they are lacking this kind of metadata.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Yes, the datasets themselves include those metadata.</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><br>Thanks,<br><br> Markus<br><br>-- <br>heig mailing list<br>heig@ivoa.net<br>https://www.google.com/url?q=http://mail.ivoa.net/mailman/listinfo/heig&source=gmail-imap&ust=1749045378000000&usg=AOvVaw2hXHOoEwqtvMAqDzD7WXGi<br></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>Thanks,<div>—Ian</div><div><br><div>
<meta charset="UTF-8"><div style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: 1.2; margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 9.5pt; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 700; letter-spacing: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: pre-wrap; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; vertical-align: baseline;">—</span></div><div style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; 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