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<div class="moz-forward-container">Dear Ian,<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">-------- Message transféré --------
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Sujet :
</th>
<td>Re: [Heig] Start up of our HEIG</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Date :
</th>
<td>Fri, 24 Jan 2025 14:53:07 -0500</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">De :
</th>
<td>Dr. Ian N. Evans <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:ievans@cfa.harvard.edu"><ievans@cfa.harvard.edu></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Pour :
</th>
<td>BONNAREL FRANCOIS gmail <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:francois.bonnarel@gmail.com"><francois.bonnarel@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Copie
à : </th>
<td>Bruno Khelifi <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:khelifi@apc.in2p3.fr"><khelifi@apc.in2p3.fr></a>,
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:heig@ivoa.net">heig@ivoa.net</a></td>
</tr>
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<br>
<br>
Dear François,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Good to hear your feedback! This document was literally
written as a level 0 starting point, with the hope that it
would prompt others to chime in so we can refine what is
needed to support the HE regime. And, like all my inputs,
it was written from the perspective of somebody who wants to
be able to use the IVOA to do science rather than from the
perspective of somebody who has to do the implementation -
i.e., it’s results oriented and not task oriented.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do have some responses to your comments - again mostly
from the perspective of what the issue is that I see rather
than how to solve it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
Thank you for this. <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>— For o_ucd, o_unit etc.: I want to know as part of data
discovery that a particular event list includes certain
observables. Ideally, I would like to do this as part of
the query - for example, I might only interested in event
lists that include X-ray polarization observables. Adding
new axes characterization may be the best way to move
forward simply given what we already have, but it just seems
to me that assuming that a dataset includes only a single
observable is very limiting (especially when we start
talking about advanced data products).</div>
</blockquote>
As already said I think an extension may add other variables
(such as polarization observables for example) as additional
axes. of course it's not possible for everything. On the other
side the current spec (1.1) writes (section 4.20) "In the case
of event lists all components could be considered as observables
prior to sampling, then o_ucd must be left NULL, unless the data
provider wants to highlight a specific axis like phot.count."
This maybe also a solution for polarization or <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">a quantity (with a ucd to
define) more appropriate than phot.count. There are also
possibilities to combine several ucd in some cases <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>— s_fov, s_resolution etc.: I think the CADC proposal is
helpful here. But it doesn’t really let me perform a query
like “find me all Chandra datasets for which the spatial
resolution at the location of Sgr A* in the field of view is
< 2 arcsec”. I don’t know how to do this and it might
indeed be non-trivial. </div>
</blockquote>
Sure. But ObsCore (and even with possible extensions) will
always be some corse graining query. With the query you should
be able to exclude 90% (or more) of the datasets not answering
your constraints. Then check the remaining response in more
detail. And for this overall resolution min and max for the
whole dataset may help<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Is this functionality needed in the UVOIR?</div>
</blockquote>
Min and max for spatial resolution have never been considered as
missing by these communities so far, as far as I know. The idea
of extension specific to a domain is to not overload everybody
with a too large root ObsCore. But of course if min max are
needed by both Radio and HeiG the should try to share the</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">same definitions<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Perhaps. I know from experience analyzing UV/optical
objective prism data that spectral resolution across a
single dataset can easily vary by a factor of 20 or more, so
that is in a similar regime. </div>
</blockquote>
in wavelenght unit ? But UV/optical use unitless resolution
power ? Is that also the case for that one ? I don't really know
or remeber actually <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Having worked with instrumentation in pretty much every
waveband from radio to X-ray during my career, my view is
that you are better off providing a capability generally in
case somebody needs it in the future, since new
instrumentation and techniques are being developed all the
time.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>— dataproduct_type: I agree with you that the vocabulary
appears to be the right path forward. I noted in my Malta
presentation that “spectrum” as currently defined in the
data product vocabulary appears to be more restrictive than
the ObsCore definition (and “light curve” is similar), so we
should start there. </div>
</blockquote>
Yes the obscore vocabulary is work in progress. It's still
possible to add terms and change definitions. Fo example
distinguishing "light curves" from the UV/optical/IR from more
general time series<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Perhaps the issue in the vocabulary is simply due to a
lack of precise definitions for the terms used IN the
vocabulary!</div>
</blockquote>
Sure<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>— energy_min/max: In this particular case I believe that
there is a technical issue that means that 32 bit em_min/max
actually don’t work at VHE. IIRC, Bruno pointed this out.</div>
</blockquote>
OK<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>— t_min/max, t_gti: I really think this should be
addressed in core rather than just a HE extension for
GTIs/STIs. Advanced data products - irrespective of
waveband - may be comprised from data from many observations
may span decades or more, albeit very sparsely, and that
makes queries based on data overlap with a specified time
interval undoable.</div>
</blockquote>
OK. Could Make sense for HST Drizzled images and HiPS also
(which is based on some kind of stacking also). But nobody is
findinh HiPS by ObsCore at the moment. <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>— irf_type/assocproduct_type etc.: Datalink may be the
way to do this as you suggest. I don’t know that instrument
responses necessarily have to be in ObsCore independently,
although someone may want to access them independently from
the event list (for example, if they are directly using a
source spectrum data product). For advanced data products,
we would definitely want to include some associated data
products in ObsCore as they will be of interest in their own
right. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
I looked at the list you provided in Malta. I don't think you
will expose all of them directly in ObsCore. So some kind of
compromise between datalink linkage and direct ObsCore
integration (for example standard spectra) with possibly new
product type terms seems to be possible <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">By the way I also have a
comment on your Malta slides about "observation". I think
section 3.3.3 of ObsCore 1.1 clarifies (with respect with 1.0)
the difference between observation and observationDataset on one
side and observationDataset and dataproducts on the other side.
It also allows observationDataset has being the combination of
several observation results (by stacking for example)</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">An ObservationDataset may be
coming from several observations (considered as a new
"observation") but may also contain several data products (rows
in Obscore). So what you have chosen for advanced data products
seem to be standard<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> </div>
<div>Hope you are enjoying retirement!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
Well I am slowly landing on the "country" of this new situation.
Not really suited yet. I a little more time to sleep.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">Cheers</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container">François<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> </div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>—Ian<br>
</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jan 24, 2025, at 09:36, BONNAREL FRANCOIS gmail
via heig <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:heig@ivoa.net"><heig@ivoa.net></a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> I will not attend the
meeting today.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> I had a quick look on
this interesting document : <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/HEIG_Winter25/HEIG_obscore_summary.pdf&source=gmail-imap&ust=1738334209000000&usg=AOvVaw11DEtOy1Wo1DxA3MzkYAAV">https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/HEIG_Winter25/HEIG_obscore_summary.pdf</a></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> These are my retired
person with radio domain eye 2 cents on this :</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> + o_ucd, o_unit,
etc... multiplicity :</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> In the case of
event lists with specific axes ("new" measured
quantities) I wonder if o_ucd is the right place to
tackle that. o_ucd was designed for the "dependant
axis". Maybe adding new axes characterization should
be a better choice. Look at the description of
visibilities in the radio extension.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> +
s_fov,s_resolution, etc.. min/max with dependency
from the spectral coordinate (photon energy). <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> This is a
common issue with radio domain as you know. CADC
proposed recently to add this in the root
Obscore.But <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> I wonder if
UV/optical/IR astronomers really need that. We
should not add to much in the root ObsCore. maybe
common definition with the the radio domain is a
better solution.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><i> +
dataproduct_type : the current ObsCore vocabulary
is limited. I think the IVOA dataproduct_type
effort is the right place to define . To my
knowledge it's not yet an official vocabulary and
adding new termis is easy to do following the</i></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><i>VEP procedure of vocab
2.0. So that's the place to play in for Heog
people.</i></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><i> </i>+
t_min/t_max : see t_gti</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> + proposal_id : OK
for multiplicity</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> New terms : <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> + ev_number : OK.
I think there is even an IVOA characterization DM
utype for that. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> + energy_min /
energy_max : OK. But I think you know the equivalent
f_min/f_max for radio domain was rejected by the
community fairing value conflicts in case of
duplication with em_min/ em_max (despite Mireille's
an mine personal opinion)</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> + t_gti : OK.
this is the concept of time support in
characterization terms. ascii tmoc is a possible
format for that. also look if DALI proposed an xtype
for this kind of list of intervals.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> + irf_ype ,
irf_description. I wonder if these complementary
data have to be in ObsCore or are better located in
DataLink associated to the main product (event
list). In that case content_qualifier is the place
to describe the exact type.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> + access_format,
UCDS : I 'm OK with what is written</div>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>François<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 23/01/2025 à a$14:47,
Bruno Khelifi via heig a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:ccf9f809-4d81-40d7-b7ab-bd3246556683@apc.in2p3.fr">
<p><font size="4">Dear all,</font></p>
<p><font size="4">For the meeting of tomorrow, I
send you a Zoom link (that I have reported in
our meeting page of the Wiki):</font><br>
</p>
<p
style="margin: 1em 0px 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial, verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 13.65px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Link:<span> </span><a
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://u-paris.zoom.us/j/86351476440?pwd%3D2YMHRRAvFvIgLbdftUt0d4GAa1USmL.1&source=gmail-imap&ust=1738334209000000&usg=AOvVaw3ELNRnwn8wZFBz0M2t3C_-"
target="_blank"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(69, 113, 208); background-color: transparent; border-color: rgb(69, 113, 208); border-style: none none dotted; border-width: 1px;"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://u-paris.zoom.us/j/86351476440?pwd=2YMHRRAvFvIgLbdftUt0d4GAa1USmL.1</a></p>
<p
style="margin: 1em 0px 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial, verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 13.65px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">Meeting
ID: 863 5147 6440<br>
Secret code: 937310</p>
<p
style="margin: 1em 0px 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: arial, verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 13.65px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;"><font
size="4">The best,<br>
Bruno</font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 20/01/2025 à 18:08,
Bruno Khelifi via heig a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8bbc801f-9150-4631-a5b6-b5e0f70ace00@in2p3.fr">
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>Based of the pool outcome, the best time slot
is the ideal one because some of you could not
attend unfortunately. However,<br>
the meeting is fixed to this <b>Friday 24th,
15h30 CET / 9:30 am EST</b>.</p>
<p>The draft meeting page can be found here: <a
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/HEIG_Winter25&source=gmail-imap&ust=1738334209000000&usg=AOvVaw25Tgxs_wOOY5z-2bdBbf4Q"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/HEIG_Winter25</a>.
A meeting link will be sent by email soon and
written in this page.</p>
<p>The best,<br>
Janet and Bruno<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 16/01/2025 à
12:21, Bruno Khelifi a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4b566b7c-f2a8-49a1-b237-0d4959e406e1@in2p3.fr">
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>First of all, I profit of my email for the
season's greetings. Best wishes to you and
your relatives for this new year. We finished
up 2024 with the creation of the HEIG with its
attached note, which is an important
achievement for the HE community.
Congratulations to all !</p>
<p>As starting point for our activities, we
propose to remotely meet via Zoom to exchange
about our roadmap for 2025, built from your
collective inputs. This roadmap will be a
guideline for our future meetings. Here is a
doodle to find out the most appropriate date:
<br>
<a
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://doodle.com/meeting/participate/id/bD6Z5Oye&source=gmail-imap&ust=1738334209000000&usg=AOvVaw0_eBDrbLTflCluSuM3-kl5"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://doodle.com/meeting/participate/id/bD6Z5Oye</a></p>
<p>The tentative agenda is:<br>
- IVOA news (Janet)<br>
- 2025 roadmap: collection of items and
definition (all)<br>
- Organisation of HEIG: monthly meetings? and
next hybrid meeting<br>
- Thematic remote meeting: Obscore extension
proposal by Patrick Dowler (see Janet's email
of the 01/06/25)<br>
- AoB (based on your feedback)<br>
</p>
<p>The best,<br>
Janet and Bruno</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><font size="2"
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Material:
HEIG wiki page <a
href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/HEGroup&source=gmail-imap&ust=1738334209000000&usg=AOvVaw3LKpRKe-7OnJAih_tYAUNP"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://wiki.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/HEGroup</a></font><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bruno Khelifi
Physicist at CNRS (laboratory APC, Paris)
Phone: +33.1.57.27.61.58 - Fax: +33.1.57.27.60.71
APC, IN2P3/CNRS - Universite de Paris Cite
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bruno Khelifi
Physicist at CNRS (laboratory APC, Paris)
Phone: +33.1.57.27.61.58 - Fax: +33.1.57.27.60.71
APC, IN2P3/CNRS - Universite de Paris Cite
</pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bruno Khelifi
Physicist at CNRS (laboratory APC, Paris)
Phone: +33.1.57.27.61.58 - Fax: +33.1.57.27.60.71
APC, IN2P3/CNRS - Universite de Paris Cite
</pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
-- <br>
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href="https://www.google.com/url?q=http://mail.ivoa.net/mailman/listinfo/heig&source=gmail-imap&ust=1738334209000000&usg=AOvVaw1r64WsMg9G79BexrwpHtWh">https://www.google.com/url?q=http://mail.ivoa.net/mailman/listinfo/heig&source=gmail-imap&ust=1738334209000000&usg=AOvVaw1r64WsMg9G79BexrwpHtWh</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div
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<div
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Dr. Ian Evans</span></div>
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