<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div>—</div><div>Translate with https: //<a href="http://www.deepl.com/translator" class="">www.deepl.com/translator</a></div><div class="">-- <br class="">jesuischarlie/Tunis/Paris/Bruxelles/Berlin<br class=""><br class="">Laurent Michel<br class="">SSC XMM-Newton<br class="">Tél : +33 (0)3 68 85 24 37<br class="">Fax : +33 (0)3 )3 68 85 24 32<br class="">Université de Strasbourg <<a href="http://www.unistra.fr" class="">http://www.unistra.fr</a>><br class="">Observatoire Astronomique<br class="">11 Rue de l'Université<br class="">F - 67200 Strasbourg</div></div></div>
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 23 Feb 2023, at 18:59, Paul Harrison <<a href="mailto:paul.harrison@manchester.ac.uk" class="">paul.harrison@manchester.ac.uk</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii" class=""><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 23 Feb 2023, at 14:24, Laurent Michel <<a href="mailto:laurent.michel@astro.unistra.fr" class="">laurent.michel@astro.unistra.fr</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div class=""><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I understand, but there is no reason but he common sense, to give a particular structure to the VOMDL-IDs.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">We you generate VODML from XMI (modelio), you first get random IDs for the VOMDL-ID and in a second steps, there are built from [model-name, attr-name , ID of the host class], but the XSLT doing this is not part of the standard. If you edit your VOMDL by hand, like Pat did, you may introduce a distortion to this rule without breaking the schema compliance.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">This is why I suggest to tell the users:</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">- do not rely on names</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">- do no parse VODML-IDs</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I agree that technically the VODML-IDs are just XMLIDs andlong as they are unique within a single VODML instance that they can have any value/structure. However, this is precisely the problem, as simply regarded like this, then two instances of a VO-DML document describing a particular model could both be valid, but with entirely different sets of VODML-IDs, and in this situation another standard like MIVOT cannot use those VODML-IDs without also saying precisely which instance document is being used to describe the model. Unless there is some guarantee about the form of the VODML-ID then there could also be undesirable behaviour that new versions of a model did not retain the exact same VODML-ID for a particular attribute.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I do not agree with this. Once the VODML-IDs have been set, no matter how you do it, they are part of the standard - of the VOMDL description of the model -. None is allowed to change them later on.</span></div></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class="">The VO-DML standard makes no guarantee of this - it is perfectly legal for me to create the next version of the PhotDM for instance with totally different VODML-IDs. We all agree that it is sensible that a particular model element keeps a constant ID and better that it is human readable, and that the human can look at the structure of the VODML-ID and make inferences about the function of that element in the model. However, the only reason that this has happened in model instances so far is because of the XSLT processing, which you say is not part of the standard. I would like the structure that the XSLT scripts impose to be part of the standard, so that the manual edit that Pat did would actually be non-compliant.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Once your model has been reviewed and accepted, the VODML file is published on the doc repo and becomes the reference along with the spec document. </div><div>None can modify it anymore out of the std&doc process. </div><div>The VOMDL-IDs in that file are then frozen and can be used with absolute confidence.</div><div> Changing them is equivalent to changing the standard.</div><div>The stability of the VOMDL-IDs is not provided by the VODML standard but by the Std&Doc rules.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">From a pragmatic point of view there are only of order 10 VO-DML instances in existence in the universe, so we can easily make any compliant, but as I think the majority of these were produced with the XSLT scripts, then they will be compliant with the technically more restrictive definition of the VODML-IDs that I am proposing anyway.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote>Any change in any VODML file should at least be traced in errata.</div><div> <br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Looking at the VO-DML schema, I was wrong to say above that the VODML-ID elements are XMLIDs as of course the VODML-REFs actually do have some structure imposed on them in that they have the model name as a prefix to the reference - so the reference validation is not done by the XML Schema mechanisms at all, but is done at the schematron level.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div></div><div>LM<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Paul</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>