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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Thanks, Mark, for looking into that. This does seem promising. I would like to do a few experiments with our existing parsers/validators to be sure, but it seems good.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">If we use this approach I would propose that we give strict guidance on the RESOURCE where VODML content lives. Since RESOURCEs can show up all over the place in a VOTABLE, I think it would be good to mandate
things like:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:3.05pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Only one such RESOURCE<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:3.05pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Only one possible location (e.g., the first RESOURCE)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:3.05pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">With well-defined scope (most likely it should be a top-level stand-alone RESOURCE, not nested in or containing other RESOURCEs)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:3.05pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">With type=”meta”<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:3.05pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">With a specific ID and/or name?<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Tom<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><dm-bounces@ivoa.net> on behalf of Laurent Michel <laurent.michel@astro.unistra.fr><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 11:39 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Mark Taylor <m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"dm@ivoa.net" <dm@ivoa.net><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: DM Workshop wrap-up<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in;text-align:center;line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">External Email - Use Caution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Hell all, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">This would be a very clean solution.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">- Gerard proposed to rephrase the XSD in order to isolate complexTypes from elements which should make easier the validation in the context of a VOTable.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">- We have been using XSD1.1 (with Python) because the merged syntax put many constraints on element attributes. This is a key point of the proposal. I do not think that such rules could be set with XSD1.0<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> - The xerces web site does not look worry about this (<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/xerces.apache.org/xerces2-j/faq-xs.html__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5h6c5iFdQ$">https://xerces.apache.org/xerces2-j/faq-xs.html</a>)
but I’ve no experience with this code<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> - I’ve no idea about how could this fit with volint either. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Best<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Laurent <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On 21 Jul 2021, at 17:02, Mark Taylor <<a href="mailto:m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk">m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">François,<br>
<br>
Yes, I think that use of the xs:any type is the right way to go here.<br>
<br>
However, that is already accommodated by the VOTable schema as it stands.<br>
Quoting from<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ivoa.net/xml/VOTable/VOTable-1.4.xsd:__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5i1_43vxg$"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">https://www.ivoa.net/xml/VOTable/VOTable-1.4.xsd:</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
<br>
<xs:complexType name="Resource"><br>
...<br>
<!-- Suggested Doug Tody, to include new RESOURCE types --><br>
<xs:any namespace="##other" processContents="lax" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded"/><br>
...<br>
</xs:complexType><br>
<br>
which means that the elements from the VODML schema can be included<br>
within a RESOURCE element in a VOTable document, with no changes<br>
to the VOTable standard required at all (thanks to Markus for<br>
pointing this out).<br>
So something like this should work out of the box:<br>
<br>
<VOTABLE version="1.4"<br>
xmlns="</span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.ivoa.net/xml/VOTable/v1.3__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5h2xvKE0w$"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">http://www.ivoa.net/xml/VOTable/v1.3</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">"<br>
xmlns:dm="</span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.ivoa.net/xml/vodml__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5iiGyvehQ$"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">http://www.ivoa.net/xml/vodml</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">"><br>
<RESOURCE type="meta"><br>
<dm:VODML ...><br>
<MODELS><br>
</MODELS><br>
...<br>
</dm:VODML><br>
</RESOURCE><br>
<RESOURCE type="results"><br>
<TABLE><br>
...<br>
</TABLE><br>
</RESOURCE><br>
</VOTABLE><br>
<br>
A VOTable document like that validates for me under the VOTable 1.4<br>
schema (e.g. xmllint -noout -schema VOTable1.4.xsd). At present votlint<br>
(</span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.starlink.ac.uk/stilts/sun256/votlint.html__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5iXtd5-Iw$"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">http://www.starlink.ac.uk/stilts/sun256/votlint.html</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">)
does complain:<br>
<br>
WARNING: Element in wrong namespace (</span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.ivoa.net/xml/vodml__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5iiGyvehQ$"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">http://www.ivoa.net/xml/vodml</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"> </span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">not<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.ivoa.net/xml/VOTable/v1.3__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5h2xvKE0w$"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">http://www.ivoa.net/xml/VOTable/v1.3</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">)<br>
<br>
but that's really a votlint bug that I will fix.<br>
<br>
I would certainly favour this approach rather than adding new VOTable<br>
elements, to avoid unnecessary coupling between the VODML and VOTable<br>
standards.<br>
<br>
Concerning the xsi:type="mapping:VODML-type" attribute:<br>
as I understand it, that wouldn't work with a schema in the form<br>
of the one at<br>
<br>
</span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ivoa-std/ModelInstanceInVot/blob/master/schema/xsd/merged-syntax.xsd__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5jFLJq0uQ$"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">https://github.com/ivoa-std/ModelInstanceInVot/blob/master/schema/xsd/merged-syntax.xsd</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
<br>
since that defines elements directly and not types (Gerard queried<br>
this stylistic decision during the DM workshop session #4).<br>
<br>
So I'm not quite sure how validation of the embedded VODML would<br>
proceed: either the schema could be rephrased to define types, or<br>
perhaps XSD validators are able to determine the required contents<br>
based on the <VODML> element name without requiring an xsi:type.<br>
<br>
One other point on the current merged-syntax.xsd: use of XMLSchema 1.1,<br>
instead of 1.0, makes it harder to validate using some tools.<br>
Java support at least is not so good for XSD 1.1, so I don't know<br>
whether votlint would be able to provide XSD validation for VODML<br>
if it was defined using this schema.<br>
<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, 16 Jul 2021, BONNAREL FRANCOIS wrote:<br>
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Hi all,<br>
<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Considering the VOTAble schema versioning issue, with the "import" of a<br>
mapping syntax which may evoluate on its own I wonder i something like the<br>
following could work.<br>
<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>1 ) in next VOTABLE schema version, create a "VODML" tag inside VOTable of<br>
type "anyType" (minoccurs = 0 of course)<br>
<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>2 ) in VOTABLE documents type this VODML tag with an<br>
xsi:type="mapping:VODML-type" , with "mapping" xmlns defined as the last<br>
version of the mapping xml schema (can be done with attributes of the VODML<br>
tag)<br>
<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>3 ) as far as I remember this would make the two schemata independant and<br>
does not require that VOTABLE documents import the mapping schema<br>
<br>
Do you think it could work ?<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
François<br>
<br>
Le 15/07/2021 à 11:36, Laurent Michel a écrit :<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Dear DM,<br>
<br>
Last Tuesday we had our last DM workshop meeting.<br>
This concluded a fruitful 7-month process whose main conclusions and<br>
prospects are listed below.<br>
<br>
An overview of the work done has been presented by LM<br>
(<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/Dm2021/MAY2021-ws41.pdf__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5jMh_tCrQ$">https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/Dm2021/MAY2021-ws41.pdf</a><br>
<<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/Dm2021/MAY2021-ws41.pdf__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5jMh_tCrQ$">https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/Dm2021/MAY2021-ws41.pdf</a>>)<br>
<br>
Conclusions in short<br>
================<br>
<br>
• Models:<br>
• Meas, Coord, PhotDM, Dataset, Cube and MANGO accepted<br>
• New use-cases to be investigated<br>
• X-RAY Astronomy<br>
• Asteroids, multi-core datasets<br>
• CTA and MM astronomy : meta-data characterization<br>
<br>
• Data Provider / client specific use-cases<br>
• Need for annotations to help processing spectra<br>
• Need to associate parameters<br>
• Need for a simple description of the photometric calibration<br>
• Need for a simple view on Provenance<br>
• Annotation on the fly feasible<br>
• Model-based PyVO API easy to design<br>
<br>
• Mapping syntax<br>
• Divergence between the 2 proposals (VODML mapping and ModelInstanceInVot)<br>
• Proof of concept for a YAML serialization of model instances<br>
<br>
Annotation<br>
=========<br>
An important effort has been made over the last 6 weeks to merge the 2<br>
syntax proposals:<br>
• see on<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ivoa-std/ModelInstanceInVot__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5gbe7QepA$">https://github.com/ivoa-std/ModelInstanceInVot</a><br>
<<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ivoa-std/ModelInstanceInVot__;!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5gbe7QepA$">https://github.com/ivoa-std/ModelInstanceInVot</a>><br>
<br>
• 3 items available so far:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
--<br>
Mark Taylor Astronomical Programmer Physics, Bristol University, UK<br>
</span><a href="mailto:m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"> </span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"> </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.star.bristol.ac.uk/*mbt/__;fg!!CrWY41Z8OgsX0i-WU-0LuAcUu2o!nQi4ELtSSzKUpZjOVSCN0rLK20EZWxEHU8Fskrp9js4kx9qVU47SL56je5gnFcabKg$"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">http://www.star.bristol.ac.uk/~mbt/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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