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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Laurent<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am curious whether XSD 1.1 would be able to express the constraints on VO_DML documents that right now are coded in schematron.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Do you know if they are compatible?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I already once created a refactored “types schema”, but that was based on the previous version.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Will create a new one later today and PR it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Gerard<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> dm-bounces@ivoa.net <dm-bounces@ivoa.net> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Laurent Michel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 21, 2021 11:39<br>
<b>To:</b> Mark Taylor <m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk><br>
<b>Cc:</b> dm@ivoa.net<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: DM Workshop wrap-up<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hell all, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This would be a very clean solution.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- Gerard proposed to rephrase the XSD in order to isolate complexTypes from elements which should make easier the validation in the context of a VOTable.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- We have been using XSD1.1 (with Python) because the merged syntax put many constraints on element attributes. This is a key point of the proposal. I do not think that such rules could be set with XSD1.0<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> - The xerces web site does not look worry about this (<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fxerces.apache.org%2Fxerces2-j%2Ffaq-xs.html&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918461664%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=HqoYCguPIXEkE2hA3xig%2Feq%2B5x6u7KzDP2Qvi3i%2BOgM%3D&reserved=0">https://xerces.apache.org/xerces2-j/faq-xs.html</a>)
but I’ve no experience with this code<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> - I’ve no idea about how could this fit with volint either. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Laurent <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 21 Jul 2021, at 17:02, Mark Taylor <<a href="mailto:m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk">m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">François,<br>
<br>
Yes, I think that use of the xs:any type is the right way to go here.<br>
<br>
However, that is already accommodated by the VOTable schema as it stands.<br>
Quoting from<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ivoa.net%2Fxml%2FVOTable%2FVOTable-1.4.xsd%3A&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918471661%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=h7qP3ghdD7NIox35yioHOMIzNki66l%2BpW3UJpYolLHE%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">https://www.ivoa.net/xml/VOTable/VOTable-1.4.xsd:</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<xs:complexType name="Resource"><br>
...<br>
<!-- Suggested Doug Tody, to include new RESOURCE types --><br>
<xs:any namespace="##other" processContents="lax" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="unbounded"/><br>
...<br>
</xs:complexType><br>
<br>
which means that the elements from the VODML schema can be included<br>
within a RESOURCE element in a VOTable document, with no changes<br>
to the VOTable standard required at all (thanks to Markus for<br>
pointing this out).<br>
So something like this should work out of the box:<br>
<br>
<VOTABLE version="1.4"<br>
xmlns="</span><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ivoa.net%2Fxml%2FVOTable%2Fv1.3&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918481649%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=1yrcvCL10NIjIyhUSuca%2BwH76LXG8b7k3Z5XVzkRxhU%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">http://www.ivoa.net/xml/VOTable/v1.3</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">"<br>
xmlns:dm="</span><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ivoa.net%2Fxml%2Fvodml&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918481649%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=HIEuRguR%2BpFPP%2BweFXhsDXBWqwbFUUZpE28p00ij8eA%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">http://www.ivoa.net/xml/vodml</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">"><br>
<RESOURCE type="meta"><br>
<dm:VODML ...><br>
<MODELS><br>
</MODELS><br>
...<br>
</dm:VODML><br>
</RESOURCE><br>
<RESOURCE type="results"><br>
<TABLE><br>
...<br>
</TABLE><br>
</RESOURCE><br>
</VOTABLE><br>
<br>
A VOTable document like that validates for me under the VOTable 1.4<br>
schema (e.g. xmllint -noout -schema VOTable1.4.xsd). At present votlint<br>
(</span><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.starlink.ac.uk%2Fstilts%2Fsun256%2Fvotlint.html&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918491644%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=RDkkUNTM1DZL%2BoxGmQuAizOQBaawR6fI7Cm7zNcIpHk%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">http://www.starlink.ac.uk/stilts/sun256/votlint.html</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">)
does complain:<br>
<br>
WARNING: Element in wrong namespace (</span><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ivoa.net%2Fxml%2Fvodml&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918491644%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=mylabw%2BiZ%2BPVK7FfnwZaGpmKkfj5qg3OMQiTWHxfFIY%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">http://www.ivoa.net/xml/vodml</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">not<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ivoa.net%2Fxml%2FVOTable%2Fv1.3&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918501642%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=D0PwW93JNz5Cz3l1Pd1nb1xKdFT%2FHAxwolYOMbRyrQQ%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">http://www.ivoa.net/xml/VOTable/v1.3</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">)<br>
<br>
but that's really a votlint bug that I will fix.<br>
<br>
I would certainly favour this approach rather than adding new VOTable<br>
elements, to avoid unnecessary coupling between the VODML and VOTable<br>
standards.<br>
<br>
Concerning the xsi:type="mapping:VODML-type" attribute:<br>
as I understand it, that wouldn't work with a schema in the form<br>
of the one at<br>
<br>
</span><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fivoa-std%2FModelInstanceInVot%2Fblob%2Fmaster%2Fschema%2Fxsd%2Fmerged-syntax.xsd&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918501642%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=PdCnTSVjPd0%2BOZcK1Kq57lBXsNQ9kkW%2BpTdg288N%2F80%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">https://github.com/ivoa-std/ModelInstanceInVot/blob/master/schema/xsd/merged-syntax.xsd</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
<br>
since that defines elements directly and not types (Gerard queried<br>
this stylistic decision during the DM workshop session #4).<br>
<br>
So I'm not quite sure how validation of the embedded VODML would<br>
proceed: either the schema could be rephrased to define types, or<br>
perhaps XSD validators are able to determine the required contents<br>
based on the <VODML> element name without requiring an xsi:type.<br>
<br>
One other point on the current merged-syntax.xsd: use of XMLSchema 1.1,<br>
instead of 1.0, makes it harder to validate using some tools.<br>
Java support at least is not so good for XSD 1.1, so I don't know<br>
whether votlint would be able to provide XSD validation for VODML<br>
if it was defined using this schema.<br>
<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, 16 Jul 2021, BONNAREL FRANCOIS wrote:<br>
<br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Hi all,<br>
<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Considering the VOTAble schema versioning issue, with the "import" of a<br>
mapping syntax which may evoluate on its own I wonder i something like the<br>
following could work.<br>
<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>1 ) in next VOTABLE schema version, create a "VODML" tag inside VOTable of<br>
type "anyType" (minoccurs = 0 of course)<br>
<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>2 ) in VOTABLE documents type this VODML tag with an<br>
xsi:type="mapping:VODML-type" , with "mapping" xmlns defined as the last<br>
version of the mapping xml schema (can be done with attributes of the VODML<br>
tag)<br>
<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>3 ) as far as I remember this would make the two schemata independant and<br>
does not require that VOTABLE documents import the mapping schema<br>
<br>
Do you think it could work ?<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
François<br>
<br>
Le 15/07/2021 à 11:36, Laurent Michel a écrit :<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Dear DM,<br>
<br>
Last Tuesday we had our last DM workshop meeting.<br>
This concluded a fruitful 7-month process whose main conclusions and<br>
prospects are listed below.<br>
<br>
An overview of the work done has been presented by LM<br>
(<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.ivoa.net%2Finternal%2FIVOA%2FDm2021%2FMAY2021-ws41.pdf&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918511632%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=tz4LKSt5AyYtxpQC0TiTsl%2FAWphch6IBgW2XWu3%2Fu2g%3D&reserved=0">https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/Dm2021/MAY2021-ws41.pdf</a><br>
<<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.ivoa.net%2Finternal%2FIVOA%2FDm2021%2FMAY2021-ws41.pdf&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918521627%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BqAbiPgT%2B38qQzBUMkVoePwmYMvbtYAKb372UlYTvH4%3D&reserved=0">https://wiki.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/Dm2021/MAY2021-ws41.pdf</a>>)<br>
<br>
Conclusions in short<br>
================<br>
<br>
• Models:<br>
• Meas, Coord, PhotDM, Dataset, Cube and MANGO accepted<br>
• New use-cases to be investigated<br>
• X-RAY Astronomy<br>
• Asteroids, multi-core datasets<br>
• CTA and MM astronomy : meta-data characterization<br>
<br>
• Data Provider / client specific use-cases<br>
• Need for annotations to help processing spectra<br>
• Need to associate parameters<br>
• Need for a simple description of the photometric calibration<br>
• Need for a simple view on Provenance<br>
• Annotation on the fly feasible<br>
• Model-based PyVO API easy to design<br>
<br>
• Mapping syntax<br>
• Divergence between the 2 proposals (VODML mapping and ModelInstanceInVot)<br>
• Proof of concept for a YAML serialization of model instances<br>
<br>
Annotation<br>
=========<br>
An important effort has been made over the last 6 weeks to merge the 2<br>
syntax proposals:<br>
• see on<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fivoa-std%2FModelInstanceInVot&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918521627%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ytc00Qb5Rp9vlyJjMznOaHPlpFjeoYHoSFtbVrVwtqw%3D&reserved=0">https://github.com/ivoa-std/ModelInstanceInVot</a><br>
<<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fivoa-std%2FModelInstanceInVot&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918531624%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=7XbwaNytqIOl5hIBVcUjy7vZOf3RX4p48zlj21QnerE%3D&reserved=0">https://github.com/ivoa-std/ModelInstanceInVot</a>><br>
<br>
• 3 items available so far:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
--<br>
Mark Taylor Astronomical Programmer Physics, Bristol University, UK<br>
</span><a href="mailto:m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> </span><a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.star.bristol.ac.uk%2F~mbt%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cglemson1%40jhu.edu%7C804c46a40e744d8405b408d94c5db9de%7C9fa4f438b1e6473b803f86f8aedf0dec%7C0%7C0%7C637624788918531624%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=1n3fN%2FwObTBg0MiUceJ%2FBDXAxKcNanfOvRhTvHLegNU%3D&reserved=0"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">http://www.star.bristol.ac.uk/~mbt/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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