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<p>Hello all,</p>
<p>Not sure which of these lists I'm still subscribed to, but
copying all from the original message. Solar system science cases
are the poster child for the various features of STC supporting
the near-field. Hopefully IVOA is still embracing the full
richness of space-time coordinates?<br>
</p>
<p>One wonders if IVOA has engaged with the planetary science
community (our solar system or others) regarding these use cases?
This applies both to requirements discovery as well as a concept
of operations and ultimate uptake in support of this community.</p>
<p>Some context and links: A reminder that IVOA is first and
foremost an IAU activity under Commission B2. Solar system issues
fall under several commissions, e.g., ephemerides under Comm X2.
The IAU has a recent standard for small bodies astrometry /
photometry:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/IAU-ADES/ADES-Master">https://github.com/IAU-ADES/ADES-Master</a></li>
</ul>
<p>There are the usual debates about JSON vs XML, etc. The long time
center for such activities, the Minor Planet Center:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.minorplanetcenter.net">https://www.minorplanetcenter.net</a><br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>was recently reorganized under the Small Bodies Node of the
Planetary Data System. If the IVOA is not coordinating with the
PDS it should be, both under the SBN and other nodes:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://pds-smallbodies.astro.umd.edu">https://pds-smallbodies.astro.umd.edu</a></li>
</ul>
<p>The Planetary Science community has the advantage of being able
to send spacecraft to visit its objects of study, and these are
supported by diverse activities at NASA centers, in particular JPL
and GSFC, e.g.:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/naif/">https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/naif/</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons">https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov">https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov</a><br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>For NEOs this includes:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov">https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov</a></li>
</ul>
<p>With other external groups like:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://newton.spacedys.com">https://newton.spacedys.com</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://asteroid.lowell.edu">http://asteroid.lowell.edu</a></li>
</ul>
<p>The community database of asteroid time series is explicitly
curated at:</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.minorplanet.info/lightcurvedatabase.html">http://www.minorplanet.info/lightcurvedatabase.html</a></li>
</ul>
<p>This would be a good site to scavenge science requirements.
Various familiar and unfamiliar archive sites support different
solar system data sets that should be of interest to IVOA. Many
sites are in states of active development.<br>
</p>
<p>There are meetings that IVOA should participate in to engage with
the Planetary Science community:<br>
</p>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://aas.org/meetings/dps50">https://aas.org/meetings/dps50</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://astrogeology.usgs.gov/groups/planetary-data-workshop">https://astrogeology.usgs.gov/groups/planetary-data-workshop</a>
(somewhat similar to ADASS)<br>
</li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news/2017/03/21/2018-planetary-science-informatics-and-data-analytics-conference/">https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news/2017/03/21/2018-planetary-science-informatics-and-data-analytics-conference/</a></li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://hotwireduniverse.org">http://hotwireduniverse.org</a><br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>At the recent DPS there were booths for ADS and WWT, but I didn't
notice an IVOA presence. Apologies if this was an oversight on my
part. The Hotwired meetings started as a joint series between
VOEvent and the Heterogeneous Telescope Networks consortium and
continues now under the IAU Time Domain Working Group (and the AAS
WG-TDA, as well). HTN is now spearheaded by the bricks-and-mortar
Las Cumbres Observatory. Several from the VOEvent WG continue to
be involved, but an enhanced IVOA participation would be welcome
in 2019! Moving objects in the solar system have been a topic
since the first meeting, but especially since Hotwired V.</p>
<p>The main belt asteroids are foreground to celestial transients,
but are background to NEOs. IVOA use cases will always need to
accommodate the multiple spatial regimes, and this will have
implications for time standards, protocols, and infrastructure.
This includes interesting variations like Kuiper Belt Objects and
artificial satellites / orbital debris. <br>
</p>
<p>Rob Seaman, Lunar and Planetary Laboratory</p>
<p>--</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/23/18 2:53 AM, François Bonnarel
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8120b349-a404-1cfd-25d2-25ede163cdde@astro.unistra.fr">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Hi,</p>
<p>This email sent yesterday to the three lists was apparently not
sent to voevent. (Time domain maling list). I was apaprently not
registered there.</p>
<p>For those on several lists, sorry for the SPAM<br>
</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>François<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
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<table class="moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing="0"
cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Sujet :
</th>
<td>TimeSeries of position (Asteroid)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Date :
</th>
<td>Thu, 22 Nov 2018 21:51:19 +0100</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">De : </th>
<td>François Bonnarel <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:francois.bonnarel@astro.unistra.fr"
moz-do-not-send="true"><francois.bonnarel@astro.unistra.fr></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Pour :
</th>
<td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:dm@ivoa.net" moz-do-not-send="true">dm@ivoa.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:dm@ivoa.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><dm@ivoa.net></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:dal@ivoa.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><dal@ivoa.net></a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:dal@ivoa.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><dal@ivoa.net></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:voevent@ivoa.net" moz-do-not-send="true">voevent@ivoa.net</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
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<pre>Der Dave, all,*
Before interop Dave asked me to provide how a TimeSeries of Asteroid
could look like with the current ts model proposal and Utypes serialisation.
<blockquote type="cite"><pre>Someone recently described to me a use case that I haven't seen in our
discussions.
To help me understand how to use the new model, could you send me a
simple example of how a time series of position over time would look ?
For a single moving object we would get multiple ra/dec or Point
values plotted against time.
For a mode complex example, multiple position and magnitude values
plotted against time.</pre>
</blockquote>
You can find a "dummy example" of this at this URL :
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/time-domain/time-series/note/DATA/Proposed_Serializations/UTYPES/AsteroidSimple.xml" moz-do-not-send="true">http://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/time-domain/time-series/note/DATA/Proposed_Serializations/UTYPES/AsteroidSimple.xml</a>
Could be from gaia for an Asteroid.
Then Dave gave more details for the second more complex example
<blockquote type="cite"><pre>Two use cases from the Gaia meeting.
Exoplanets, the star will change both brightness and position by tiny
amounts linked to the planet's orbit. Very small and slow changes in
both position and brightness, hard to detect above the noise.
Near earth asteroid will be travelling very fast, and change
brightness in response to distance from the sun, position relative to
the sun, and rotation and shape of the asteroid itself. Very large and
rapid changes in both position and brightness.
Both are valid cases for time series of positions and magnitudes. </pre></blockquote>
This is an attempt for a Near Earth Asteroid
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/time-domain/time-series/note/DATA/Proposed_Serializations/UTYPES/AsteroidFull.xml" moz-do-not-send="true">http://volute.g-vo.org/svn/trunk/projects/time-domain/time-series/note/DATA/Proposed_Serializations/UTYPES/AsteroidFull.xml</a>
Data are dummy of course. but with about 1 magnitude amplitude and 1deg position change in 10 days !!!
<i><b>Changes for the Exoplanets use case can be easilly done :</b></i>
There will be no real "look and feel" change for the magnitudes.
For position, the best is probably to set the mid position of the star in the refPOsition of COOSYS (see note below) and to have the lon and lat columns giving the deviation from this
position along the ra and dec axes (and no more ecliptic longitude and latitude). The unit for these two columns will probbaly be "mas" instead of "deg".
Cheers
François
COOSYS note : currently there is no "refPosition" attribute in COOSYS. We propose to add one , taking the opportunity of the change in VOTable schema required to introduce TIMESYS.
this attribute allows accurate distinctions of positions computed from BARYCENTER, TOPOCENTER, GEOCENTER, as well as definitions of standalone "local" spatial frames to code for
very accurate measurements.
</pre>
</div>
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