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<p>Hi all,<br>
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</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"> short
answer: why not add webp, but before we encourage that, let's
weigh up the pros
and cons..<br>
Long answer: <br>
</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">First of
all, an important reminder for those unfamiliar with the HiPS
standard: a HiPS
can be distributed simultaneously in several tile formats,
typically FITS and
PNG for HiPS images. And the list of HiPS tile formats in the
HiPS 1.0 document
is indicative and deliberately not exhaustive. The policy
expressed by the
authors of the HiPS 1.0 document tends to reconcile these two
criteria: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">1 – <b>Cover
current and future use cases.</b> This point tends to take
into account several
tile formats (FITS for direct pixel access to full dynamic
range, PNG for a
high-compression visual alternative, TSV for catalog tiles,
etc.) </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">And it seems
perfectly reasonable to add the formats needed to cover new
requirements. For
example, “parquet” for the use of HiPS for partitioning rather
than
visualization (= HATS initiative). Or FITS3D and APNG or
equivalent for current
work on HiPS3D.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">But this first
criterion is tempered by a second important one: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">2 - <b>Ensure
the widest possible match between HiPS products and compatible
clients</b>. This
point tends to limit the number of tile formats.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Duplication
of formats should be avoided as a matter of principle. And the
replacement of a
format meeting a particular need already covered must be
sufficiently
justified. And if this is the case (e.g. PNG gradually replacing
JPEG to
benefit from a transparency channel (*) ), a transition phase is
necessary to give
customers (and HiPS generation tools) time to implement the
replacement format.
This transition phase is costly, as it involves the duplication
of tiles (old
and new formats), and time-consuming (convincing customers of
the benefits of
switching to the new format (e.g. PNG instead of JPEG)).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">0 - There's
also a prerequisite: <b>use only widely known formats,</b>
displayable/readable
independently of the HiPS ecosystem. The aim is to facilitate
implementation
(from the point of view of both generation and clients).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">In fact,
most of these principles have already been taken up in Markus'
answer</span></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Now that
we've recalled these principles, <b>what are the justifications
for a new
evolution/addition</b> to the tile format for visualizing
lossy compressed data,
i.e. offering an alternative to JPEG and/or PNG to webp? Thomas
Boch has carried out
several full-scale tests, and I'll let him tell you the results.
We'll then be
able to decide, at IVOA level, whether or not it's justified to
encourage this
new format as an alternative, or even a replacement.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">The AVIF
format was also mentioned. For our part at CDS, we haven't
tested this format.
The fact that it offers better dynamic range coverage would
indeed be a plus,
but this would have to be demonstrated beforehand (a property
generally
incompatible with a good compression factor).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Finally,
the point about the keyword to be used “png, jpg, fits, ....”
for the keyword
“hips_tile_format”, it <b>seems reasonable to me to suggest
“webp”</b> since this is
the extension usually used. And if necessary, to write a short
Endorsed Note to
avoid divergences. The remark about the “ bad ‘ choice of ’ jpeg
‘ instead of ’
jpg ” is quite pertinent. This could be addressed in an Errata.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">(*) For
@Markus, PNG was proposed for the importance of an alpha channel
and not
specifically for lossless compression. In fact, whether in JPEG
or PNG, you
have to apply a cut (8bits) and therefore necessarily introduce
a large loss of
information compared with the original pixels.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB">Pierre<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"><br>
</span></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 04/03/2025 à 14:05, Laurent Michel
via apps a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:66ea806f-5dde-4e91-ab32-62cf13e649b3@astro.unistra.fr">Hello,
<br>
<br>
For the record, the transparency is already supported for PNG
(blank=xyz parameter of HipsGen)
<br>
I join an XMM image of Mkr 993 as shown by Aladin Lite V3 where we
can see that the CCD gaps are transparent.
<br>
This feature has ben requested longtime ago to enhance the
rendering of stacked images
<br>
<br>
Laurent
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 04/03/2025 à 09:33, Dubois-Felsmann, Gregory P. via apps a
écrit :
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I’m mainly acting as an intermediary here,
representing colleagues not so familiar with IVOA processes. We
received a suggestion that we support HiPS-via-WebP in Firefly,
which I didn’t want to do just by guessing, without some written
support. Even more did I not want the project to publish
datasets described as “HiPS” that were not conformant.
<br>
<br>
I primarily want to get CDS’s views on this, to start with.
<br>
<br>
With regard to your “why” question, the (relatively small) size
reduction was probably the main motivation from my Rubin
colleagues, but I noted that without support from the standard,
we’d at best be stuck providing *both* WebP *and*** one of
the existing standard types, thus with a net storage/cloud cost
increase, not decrease.
<br>
<br>
From another point of view, I think supporting both compression
and transparency could be valuable for HiPS that are
partial-sky, making it easier for clients to "stack" them. I'd
certainly like to hear CDS' take on that, though.
<br>
<br>
Regarding AVIF, about which I know essentially nothing, what I'm
told is that it would facilitate providing high-dynamic-range
imaging in a compressible format. It is a fairly well-known
issue with HiPS as it is that it's difficult to scale a
JPEG/PNG-based HiPS image so that it provides a good
visualization experience both in bright Galactic-plane regions
and in sparsely populated regions.
<br>
<br>
Gregory
<br>
<br>
Get Outlook for iOS <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://aka.ms/o0ukef"><https://aka.ms/o0ukef></a>
<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
*From:* apps <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:apps-bounces@ivoa.net"><apps-bounces@ivoa.net></a> on behalf of Markus
Demleitner via apps <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:apps@ivoa.net"><apps@ivoa.net></a>
<br>
*Sent:* Monday, March 3, 2025 23:17
<br>
*To:* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:apps@ivoa.net">apps@ivoa.net</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:apps@ivoa.net"><apps@ivoa.net></a>
<br>
*Subject:* Re: WebP in HiPS?
<br>
Dear Gregory,
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Mar 03, 2025 at 08:25:30PM +0000, Dubois-Felsmann,
Gregory P. via apps wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">However, the HiPS standard's language
was not written in a way that
<br>
seems open to the _replacement_ of JPEG/PNG by WebP. The way
the
<br>
tile-format metadata in the `properties` file is set up is
<br>
certainly extensible and compatible with it, but the words in
the
<br>
standard itself are restrictive and prescriptive:
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I am fairly agnostic towards adding an image format or two to
HiPS,
<br>
but let me motivate why we should keep the list of supported
image
<br>
formats closed and short.
<br>
<br>
HiPS is not only interpreted by Aladin lite and hence web
browsers;
<br>
there are also implementations running on conventional operating
<br>
systems.
<br>
<br>
They (practically) need to know which libraries they need up
front
<br>
and don't have the luxury of a runtime supporting a plethora of
<br>
random image formats (but then don't share the danger that
browser
<br>
manufacturers suddenly pull the plug on something eminently
<br>
reasonable:
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_XL#Industry_support_and_adoption">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_XL#Industry_support_and_adoption</a>)
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_XL#Industry_support_and_adoption)"><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_XL#Industry_support_and_adoption)></a>.<br>
<br>
I mention in passing that being open to all kinds of image
formats is
<br>
also a huge attack surface; a large fraction of serious
<br>
non-javascript holes in web browsers were and are in image
codecs,
<br>
and you don't want to force all HiPS clients to have to pull
these
<br>
in, too.
<br>
<br>
Hence, we should have good reasons to extend the list of
supported
<br>
image formats in HiPS. Two times better compression would count
for
<br>
me. 1.2 times better wouldn't. Standardised WCS would count;
"but
<br>
<company X> does it" wouldn't. "Supports lossy
compression *and* an
<br>
alpha channel" (which we don't have at the moment with PNG and
JPEG)
<br>
would convince me if Pierre tells me alpha channels are a good
thing
<br>
in HiPS.
<br>
<br>
And I think I'd make "there are two independently maintained
codecs
<br>
out there" also a condition for letting something in (where I
admit
<br>
I'm not sure anyone has ever seen a need to re-implement libpng,
so
<br>
I'd not insist on making this a hard condition if the reference
<br>
implementation is sufficiently community-supported).
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">In the mean time we will assume ".webp".
<br>
<br>
Also: my colleagues are asking: would you also plan to support
<br>
AVIF?
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
After that, in both cases: Can you make the case why we should?
And
<br>
what's the implementation status of the formats in the relevant
<br>
platforms (which, like it or not, still includes the JDK)?
<br>
<br>
-- Markus
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
--
<br>
English version: https: //www.deepl.com/translator
<br>
</blockquote>
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