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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Hi Pierre, et al.,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Thank you for reminding us of how this decision evolved. Based on your analysis and the other comments so far, I am also in favor of trying to reintroduce the ASCII serialization or TMOCs and STMOCs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Tom<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><apps-bounces@ivoa.net> on behalf of Pierre Fernique <Pierre.Fernique@astro.unistra.fr><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, March 12, 2021 at 11:06 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Mark Taylor <m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk>, ada nebot <ada.nebot@astro.unistra.fr><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Applications WG <apps@ivoa.net><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: MOC 2.0 WD Feedback<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">External Email - Use Caution</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">Hi Mark et al.,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Le 11/03/2021 à 10:31, Mark Taylor a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Ada, Francois, et al.,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">I'm not necessarily against this, but in order to avoid hitting a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">problem that we might have run into before: does anybody know why the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">STMOC ASCII serialization was removed from the document in the first <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">place? It was present in an internal draft I have dated 2020-09-14, <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">but not at <a href="https://www.ivoa.net/documents/MOC/20201112/index.html">https://www.ivoa.net/documents/MOC/20201112/index.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">It's possible that I was party to the conversation that resulted in<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">that change, but if so I don't remember. Can the authors explain<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">why STMOC ASCII got removed?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">The removal of ASCII serialization for TMOCs and STMOCs in WD 2.0 had been motivated when the authors were considering the complete removal of the temporal MOC hierarchy due to the fact that the syntax was based on this notion of
hierarchy (<i>order/npix or order/range...</i>). As we finally decided to keep a hierarchy (factor 2 for time and 4 for space), technically it could be possible to reintegrate this ASCII serialization in the document by just adjusting a little bit the text
to take into account the 61 orders of time compared to the 29 of space).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">I would be in favor of reintroducing. My current point of view is also motivating by the fact that I'm updating Aladin Desktop to follow the latest WD, and I admit that the removal of ASCII serialization is a concern for me, especially
in the script commands (draw MOC ....) that requires an ASCII expression and also to keep a global consistency for the MOCs serializations. Also, I keep in mind the remarks of Gregory Dubois, just after my IVOA presentation which let think me that an ASCII
serialization will be really required anymore. François Bonnarel's last mail is also in the same direction.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">If there is no strong opposition and the other redactors agree, I think it would make sense to reintroduce this alternative. Ada ? Daniel ?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">Cheers<br>
Pierre<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Thanks<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Mark<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">On Thu, 11 Mar 2021, ada nebot wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Dear Tom, Francois, and Apps,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Tom, thanks for all your comments, I will take your editorial suggestions into account.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Francois, concerning the ascii serialisation, thanks for pointing that out! I totally agree with you that we should bring back the ascii serialisation to the document. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Best, <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Ada<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">--<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Astronome Adjointe<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">CDS, Observatoire Astronomique de Strasbourg (ObAS)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">UMR 7550 Université de Strasbourg <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">11, rue de l'Université, F-67000 Strasbourg<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">+33 (0) 3 68 85 24 20<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">On 10 Mar 2021, at 16:54, BONNAREL FRANCOIS <a href="mailto:francois.bonnarel@astro.unistra.fr"><francois.bonnarel@astro.unistra.fr></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Dear apps, dear MOC2.0 authors<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">I went to this spec with my DAL point of view.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">It's now a couple of monthes (years ?) that the IVOA community point out that it would be good that DAL parameter-based protocols could use MOC as input parameters<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">There is no reason that this should be restricted to space<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">One obvious use case is when you get a MOC for some survey, catalog , or whatever from a previous operation in the VO and want to query a parameter-based service (Simple access service or SODA) constraining the service response using this MOC.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Although we could imagine using the binary coding described at page 18/19 as a MOC parameter value, it would be obviously more user friendly to allow ASCII serialization there.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">By preparing a github PR for this feature in SODA I realized that Time ascii serialization doesn't exist any more in the current version of the spec. But it was the case in the preliminary note (<a href="https://ivoa.net/documents/stmoc/index.html">https://ivoa.net/documents/stmoc/index.html</a>)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">I don't know the very technical reasons for this change but I think it would be useful to provide back an ASCII TMOC serialization at least to serve the extension of MOC usage to DAL protocols.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Cheers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">François<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Le 09/03/2021 à 00:42, Tom Donaldson a écrit :<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Dear Pierre, et al.,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">I spent a little time reviewing the MOC 2.0 working draft (<a href="https://www.ivoa.net/documents/MOC/20201112/WD-MOC-2.0-20201112.pdf">https://www.ivoa.net/documents/MOC/20201112/WD-MOC-2.0-20201112.pdf</a>)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">and have some feedback.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">First, thank you to all the authors. I found the document well written, clearly explaining both the motivation<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">and required details. This functionality seems very worthwhile, and the technique well-studied and effective.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">I don't have any major concerns with the content.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">I could imagine some discussion about generalizing the technique further to incorporate other dimensions<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">such as spectral coverage. However, I note that the space and time representations are customized based on<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">the specific characteristics of those values, so other dimensions may need other customizations. Without<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">studying the use cases and values for at least one other dimension at the same level of detail as<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">space and time, generalizing the customizations seems premature.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">I do have a few editorial suggestions:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Table of Contents<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- starts with a "Todo list" referring to page 4, but there is no Todo list on that or other pages.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- does not include the Acknowledgements or Conformance-related definitions from page 5<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Introduction<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- Should the reference to be to MOC 1.1 instead of MOC 1.0?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Section 2.3, p14<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- in "more than 73000 years at 1μ resolution", "1μ" should be "1μs".<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Section 3.3<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- comma unnecessary after "(coded according to the TMOC convention)". Possible alternate wording to make it a little smoother:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> "by associating each time period (coded according to the TMOC convention) with its spatial region<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> (coded according to the SMOC convention)."<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Section 4.2<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- "about 1000 seconds (see Table 1)" should instead refer to Table 2 for the time resolutions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Section 4.2.1<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- awkward phrasing in, "The numbering scheme used in TMOC for specifying the time cell indices must reuse a similar hierarchical<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> principle as for the SMOC with the difference that the time line has only one dimension, and there is no need to use an HEALPix<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> mapping in addition of a progression of a factor of 2 instead of 4."<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> Suggest maybe:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> "The numbering scheme used in TMOC for specifying the time cell indices must reuse a similar hierarchical principle as for the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> SMOC with the difference that the time line has only one dimension, so the hierarchical progression uses a factor of 2 instead of 4,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> and there is no need to use a HEALPix mapping."<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Section 4.3.1<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- in Backward compatibility, "existing library" should probably be "existing libraries".<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Section 4.3.2<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- The EBNF does not seem to allow the final index-free order (the example ends with "8/" to indicate an order of 8.) Maybe update to:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> moc ::= ordpix (sep+ ordpix)* [sep+ order]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> ordpix ::= order sep* pixs<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> order ::= int ’/’<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> pixs ::= pix (sep+ pix)*<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> pix ::= int? | (int ’-’ int)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> sep ::= [ \n\r]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> int ::= [0-9]+<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Section 5.1<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- This sentence equates forcing the 64th bit to 1 with negating the integer:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> "To distinguish time and space indices, the time indices must have the 64th bits forced to 1 - i. e. represented<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> as a negative integer."<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> Should we clarify that the time indices must be the twos complement negative of the actual value? This would prevent<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> any possible confusion between that and just masking that last bit to 1 without changing the other bits. I believe the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> FITS standard uses twos complement for signed ints, but it can't hurt to be explicit.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">References<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- I'm not sure whether it's important for references to include URLs, or what the best links are (DOIs, etc.), but some<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"> reference have a URL and some don't, so maybe some more consistency could be achieved?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">- The MOC 1.0 reference describes it as Working Draft (it is REC) and links to the most recent version (1.1) instead of 1.0.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Tom<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">--<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">Mark Taylor Astronomical Programmer Physics, Bristol University, UK<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><a href="mailto:m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk">m.b.taylor@bristol.ac.uk</a> <a href="http://www.star.bristol.ac.uk/~mbt/">http://www.star.bristol.ac.uk/~mbt/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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